Pirates Reach 81 Wins as September Surge Continues

yo welcome to the north shore nine podcast presented by fanduel this is ns nine live i'm your host anthony dinardo with me we have jim we have tai folks it is fall it is fall and i don't know about you too but

it came quick for me like one day it was hot and sunny and then today i'm telling you man it was cool i saw leaves on the ground how this happened overnight

I don't know how it happened for you.

I know I was in Texas earlier this week and it was like a hundred degrees.

And then I flew back to Louisville and it was like sixty five.

So, yeah, wearing a hoodie today feels amazing.

Jim, that makes so much more sense because I think you tweeted it, that it was your first hoodie day of the year.

And I'm like, it's been hoodie days all week.

I know.

I love it.

I absolutely love it.

But no, today was officially my first hoodie day.

We were like, it was a touch too warm for a hoodie.

Yeah, it was here, but like it was windy here and the wind was Walking around, I seen, like I said, I saw leaves on the ground.

I didn't see leaves on the ground yesterday.

Better blow your hat off because this is a little weird.

I know.

what?

As soon as I started the show, I was like, oh, what?

That's true.

Yeah.

Hatless DiNardo.

I don't know the last time you did a podcast without a hat on.

Yeah.

The only time I see him like this is whenever we're like on location and it's an hour past when we're supposed to leave and he's waking up.

Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, no hat for me tonight, I guess.

I could get it.

It's right there.

No, you don't need it.

You don't need it.

Show off that head of hair.

Unlike Tyler.

I do.

You don't.

How about them Buccos?

They won today.

They won today.

Another series win.

I think this put them at fourteen and seven so far for September.

Yeah.

So they're doing the whole two out of three.

Yeah.

They're winning the two out of three thing.

Win number eighty one today.

So that's a big deal.

a big deal.

We're not going to celebrate it, but.

Number five in my life.

Yeah, there you go.

The fifth time that we've won eighty one games in Tyler's life.

Paul Skenes.

Congratulations, Tyler.

Thank you.

Thank you.

This is all Tyler.

Yeah.

Paul Skenes's racked up his two hundredth strikeout became the what the third Pirates pitcher to do that ever.

I think with back to back years.

First time since Bob Veale in nineteen sixty five.

So that's been before any of us were alive.

Mason Montgomery dominating Jared Jones dominating.

All-time strikeout record.

We hit on that the other day.

Camilo Doval was claimed.

Ethan's here.

That's got to save the team a couple tens of thousands of dollars, right?

Hell yeah.

Khristian Curtis' season's officially over.

He was optioned today.

And yeah, team awards came out.

Brandon Lowe was the team MVP.

Braxton Ashcraft, best pitcher.

Jake Mangum, the media good guy award.

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff going on right now.

None of it.

You don't care about any of it.

You care about some of it.

What about like Mason Montgomery?

Mason Montgomery, twenty five straight scoreless appearances.

That's something to care about.

Now, it'd be a lot more to care about if it was going into a postseason run here, but it's not.

I know what Tyler cares about.

I don't.

Nothing.

There's Ethan.

Ethan coming in.

Doval getting claimed saves the Pirates.

Ninety-seven thousand dollars.

Ninety-seven thousand eight hundred and sixty-one dollars.

Seriously, we all should have a giant pizza party.

Thanks to the Giants.

Thank you, Buster Posey, for the pizza party.

When's the next plant meetup?

Oh, and then we missed that too.

Potato Pete beat Jalapeno Hannah tonight by just like a close.

A no win to win the championship.

Shout out Potato Pete.

I've always been a Potato Pete guy.

Jalapeno Hannah, baby.

The worst.

The worst of all the pierogies.

The most unethical pierogie to ever do it.

Jalapeno Hannah.

She's trying.

Period.

Full stop.

Whatever it takes.

Didn't happen this year.

But next year, she's going to do whatever is needed to be done to make herself a winner.

Well, she lost.

what?

The one time, Jalapeno Hannah had to race one time straight up without cheating, and she couldn't win.

It was close.

It was close.

Close doesn't count.

Anyways, I know what Tyler's excited about.

There's one more series.

Three more games.

Facing the Detroit Tigers.

who used to be a Detroit Tiger?

Gregory Soto.

That means Tyler has to see Gregory Soto for three more games.

That's what he's excited about.

I'm excited.

I'll say this.

I was sweating it today.

I thought it was coming.

I was sweating it.

Because he's under the ERA so far.

But if he would have given up a run today, it would have made it dicey.

It would have made it dicey.

But I'm feeling pretty good on that one.

I love how Don Kelly decides he's going to pull him early now.

When we're that close to me, just putting you both above my over-under.

Now's when he wants to pull the guy early.

Now.

Loyal listener, I guess.

That's what it is.

Love it.

We know which one he hates on this show.

Same with everyone else hates on this show.

Try to be different, DK.

Come on.

Everyone else hates me.

But no,.

There's a lot of cool individual things going on.

Yeah.

Yeah, there's lots of stuff happening.

I think the MVP award was pretty easy choice.

Brandon Lowe, best pitcher, probably an easy choice, I would say, too, with Ashcraft.

Media, good guy.

We're like fake media.

We're like the fake pretend media.

We act like media sometimes, but we're not.

But Jake Mangum, certainly well-deserving of that award based on the interactions that we've had.

So, yeah, shout out to all three of those guys.

I don't want to cut you off.

This entire show so far, Tyler, you look like you want to say something.

And me.

I don't like dead air.

So if there's dead air, I'm going to fill it.

But I'm trying not to cut you off.

I'm going to cause the dead air because I know you hate it.

And it makes me happy when you hate things.

But yeah, Brandon Lowe, obviously the best player on this team, which could have been a lot more interesting if guys don't get hurt.

Ashcraft, for sure.

I think that...

Head and shoulders above everyone.

And then, yeah, like you said, Jake Mangum does get a lot of hate on the internet, which that's what the internet's for.

We like weird things.

We all like weird things.

But yeah, Jake Mangum, great guy.

Everybody speaks so highly of him.

We've met him.

We talked to him.

He's great.

He is.

He's great.

Good dude.

Yeah, he really is.

Yeah.

I can't add anything to anyone, anything else that you said.

I think it's all pretty well said.

And anyways.

So let's jump into some things here.

Pirates won their eighty first game of the year today.

Big deal.

Big deal.

Like we said before, it's only happened five times in Tyler's life.

How old are you, Tyler?

Thirty three.

Thirty three years old.

And the Pirates have clinched this team, the twenty six Pirates.

our top five team in your lifetime and what if they win one more game they're a top two they're a top four team in your lifetime this makes ben

Cherington the second best gm in my lifetime that's sad but it's true yeah oh yeah

So one of the things like getting back to five hundred, I think it's certainly something it's like it's not something to be celebrated by any means.

But, it's something to acknowledge.

Like I said, this team doesn't do that often.

At the same time, it's also frustrating because like they are they're playing so good right now.

And like if they had just treaded water a little bit longer without going on that, just like tanking spree in late July early August

these could be like really fun games right now and they're still fun but they're not as fun as they could have been it's a little frustrating not just fun but meaningful yeah

instead of the main story being the pierogi race today on, sports net Pittsburgh, we could have actually been like really into the game.

Cause it was a good game today too.

Paul Skenes finally, look good.

Like he, cause teens look good today.

I thought, best he's looked in a while, gave up that first inning home run.

But after that settled in and striking people out, swinging and missing.

Yeah.

It looked like his old self without the velocity.

Yeah, they lost this thing, like you said there, earlier in the year.

And coming into the season, or at least midway through the year, we all looked at September as a potential spot where they could really at least make up ground or stay still where they were.

And unfortunately, the ground was just so steep at that point that there was nothing they could do.

And it's because of the missed opportunities they had earlier in the year.

I don't know about fun, but...

I don't find this fun.

I don't.

I'm sorry, guys.

I don't.

This is not fun.

Eighty one games.

Well, they're playing fun.

they're again.

I don't find it fun when you're not playing for anything.

It's still fun.

Baseball.

I don't find that fun.

You're playing for you to talk about this team and you have to watch about this team.

So if you're going to have to watch it, might as well be fun and entertaining.

I'd rather see them win.

And that is what's... For sure.

they... You said the ground.

Yeah, they had a whole sinkhole open up.

They're driving down in downtown Pittsburgh on a blue bus.

And a sinkhole opened up.

And that tanked their season.

Because they couldn't get out of it.

They couldn't get out of it.

And they've tread water.

They've done well here.

But you're right, man.

they had a trade deadline where they had some real...

concerns.

They absolutely shored up one, and they left two still wide open and out there.

And they weren't able to really do anything until they had all the reinforcements come back, all of them.

And then they were able to make that run with the easiest schedule, which we're alluding to.

September is a place that they can make up some ground here.

You got to get there.

Get to be five hundred September, and then we'll maybe talk.

And they just weren't able to do that before then.

So, yeah, that is what's frustrating, because There was something there.

there was something there.

All three of us, we had this talk earlier today because I think Doug misspoke on the postgame when he called all of us out.

We all agreed over.500 for this team.

I think, Tyler, you said what our actual numbers were.

Yeah, I had 83.

You had 84, DiNardo, and then Jim.

Jim went a little hopy.

Emma went 87, but he had a great soliloquy or a great speech about why they would be.

Yeah, I would say we were all pretty hopeful.

I think the two of you both predicted just shy of the postseason.

I think I said third wild card.

But yeah, it's it again, it's fun to watch them play well, but it's also frustrating.

they were when they got swept by the Dodgers last month that took their record to sixty three and sixty nine.

Since then, they're eighteen and nine.

Again, fourteen and seven in December.

Yeah, it's they've just they've played really good baseball now for about a month.

And.

Yeah, I don't know.

It is making me feel more confident heading into next year.

I don't know about you guys.

I'm not saying this is a success or anything, but seeing what this team looks like right now with Konnor Griffin healthy, Oneil Cruz healthy, and with this team intact a

little bit with the starting pitchers humming with this new bullpen that they've got, who a lot of them are going to be back next year.

It does make me optimistic for next year.

Like I was talking on the postgame show with Doug a couple of days ago, especially with the rotation.

We'll get into the pitching here in a bit.

But like I just I feel pretty good heading into this offseason about where this team's at right now.

Now, I'm not saying like I'm happy with how the season went.

I'm not.

But I think they're in a pretty good spot right now.

Well, let me ask you're just focused on the future,?

Because they were treading.

They're hovering in that last wildcard spot.

They bought at the deadline.

And right before the deadline, that's when this thing was really crashing before them.

And you could question if they even should have bought.

And they did.

And they should have bought as well.

They should have.

But think about this.

It's reminiscent of a few years ago.

So let's look at it that way.

They were treading.

It was a pretty successful season in that sense up until the deadline.

And right before the deadline, before we talk about the Houston Astros series, that team came crumbling down.

Holderman became the Colin Holderman we knew before he became a guardian and became the old Holderman again.

But anyways, they bought and it just fell apart.

And I feel like it never really, like it was fine towards the end.

know we talked about how they had the two-man rotation and all this actually as you before that wasn't it the two-man rotation yeah that was that would have been twenty so never mind three yeah three

so yeah twenty-four they didn't have the two-minute rotation but anyways the again they had the collapse they shredded but not great and they ended up doing seventy-six games obviously So you're talking about the future.

I guess let's put it this way.

How do you feel about this team going into next year opposed to that team going into twenty five?

I think I'd agree a good bit with Jim that I feel good about at least the core of what they have going forward here.

I have a hard time getting over losing Brandon Lowe, which it's yet to be seen what happens there.

They could bring him back.

You never know, but losing home runs and what he's done this year, that's incredibly difficult to replace.

With that being said, I think you have to feel good about what Esmerlyn Valdez did throughout the year, Rafael Flores coming along behind the plate has been a godsend, I think.

But there's still, I think, enough holes that I don't feel great going into next year.

What are the holes?

It's going to be second and third base for sure.

I'm afraid that they're going to rest on their laurels with the starting pitching because they do have all five guys coming back.

And I'm afraid that they're not going to add to that.

I still think the bullpen is going to be a question, although it will be better.

And I honestly, I think right field is going to be a bit of a question mark as well.

Plus hitting left handers.

That's not going to be fixed with what they currently have.

Like the same issues are going to be a problem next year as it stands.

Alex's episode this morning was about how... There's Brandon Lowe, obviously.

That's the big thing hanging out there.

But also, you do need to figure out a way to address this left-handed pitching woe issue that you have.

So that's for me, like the big thing outside of Brandon Lowe that this team needs to target.

But to go back to the question, like, how do you feel about this team compared to two seasons ago?

That twenty four team, DiNardo, had five players, five hitters on that team who finished above one war, only five.

Cruz Reynolds, Yasmany Grandal, Joey Bart, and Nick Gonzales.

And then one wasn't coming back.

This team has nine.

This team has nine, and all of them are coming back except for Brandon Lowe.

So it's just, yeah, the depth is just so much better now.

You feel pretty comfortable about a lot of positions, whereas two years ago, going into that offseason, that you're not feeling good about where the team's at.

And then you addressed it by adding Tommy Pham and Adam Frazier, right?

That's what you went out there and did.

This team is just light years ahead of where that team was two years ago.

particularly on offense, but I would even add on the pitching staff too.

Because like Tyler, you said, they've got five starting pitchers returning if they want to keep all five.

What do they do with Mitch Keller?

Well, we can discuss that, but they have five guys who I would even say at this point, they are proven starting pitchers.

Braxton Ashcraft just pitched a full season.

Bubba Chandler just pitched a full season.

Jared Jones just pitched twenty starts and is getting stronger as the season's going on.

Like these are guys who are proven major league starters at this point.

Like you're not just you're not just hoping that guys are good now.

Like you know who they are.

And a lot of them are still really young.

And you think that they can even get better.

I think I think that's the bullpen to you could address.

But yeah.

Yeah, obviously you feel good about the offense.

A lot better than you did.

Because it's always been, what will Cruz be?

We think Cruz will be this.

We think he can be this.

Especially over a full course of a season.

Maybe next year will be the true breakout.

And I feel like he's had that breakout.

He is that guy now.

So...

You can hope he has just as good of a season, even if he doesn't, right?

Like even if he steps back a little bit, this is still like a four war type season.

He plays a whole year, even taking a step back.

Like, is he back to it next year?

I would love it.

I would absolutely love it.

He can, he showed he can be like, what if next year he's batting two, fifty five to sixty?

Like, I'll still take that.

Oh, no, Cruz.

that's what I say.

Like, even if taking a step back, he's still a good player.

But I feel more confident in, oh, no, Cruz in his game.

what he's going to provide next year opposed to here's what he can it's not so much potential anymore it's like it has arrived Bryan Reynolds showed he was productive but he's done this before too

but it's nice seeing that he came back here productive again you see Nick Gonzales break out offensively we've seen like Tyler said Rafael Flores Andy to some level Henry is still what he is but like that's the thing like and I feel like in

you can expect Henry to probably take that next step.

So that's something you're hoping for.

there were still the Ke'Bryan Hayes that you've seen something in there and I don't know, but Hey, he's at least with his defense, a walking two, three war player.

That's gone.

Now the word about Ke'Bryan Hayes, that's gone.

So I think there's a lot more stability in the lineup.

You still have some youth coming up, and there was good signs from the youth that we saw.

Yes, you're losing Brandon Lowe.

That stinks.

Most likely losing Brandon Lowe, I should say that.

He could come back.

But right now, as of today, he's not on the team in twenty seven.

So you're losing Brandon Lowe.

But I think the big thing is like with the pitching, it's always been potential with the pitching.

Paul Skenes was a dog.

And that's like, well, this person, that person, what?

Like, it's like, they have all this potential.

There's still good things with the pitching.

There's a lot of young core, but like Jim said, they nailed it to me is they've showed it.

They've progressed.

Jared Jones was supposed to come back the following year.

That's why, again, the pitching was...

I'm not going to say they'll let years ahead because, again, Jared Jones was coming back.

Paul Skenes was coming back.

We lost Jared Jones in spring training the following year.

He was supposed to come back, but the difference with that, too, is Jared Jones was...

killing off as the season went, right?

That's when he started to become a little bit unsure.

This year was the opposite.

He ended strong.

So now you're feeling a lot more confident next year.

Braxton Ashcraft put that full year, essentially, and he looks great.

Bubba Chandler has progressed, and emotionally, I feel like matured as well, and as a pitcher, matured as well.

So yeah, I feel very...

confident in this rotation how we were feeling this year because of what they possess what they can do and i feel like now they've shown that they actually can do it and then yes with the bullpen as well like i know it's not

david bednar and santana coming back but mason montgomery weaver like them two locking down your bullpen i'm very confident that's and then you just figure

the rest out So I do feel more confident in this team than I do two years ago, for sure.

You didn't even mention Rafael Flores Jr.

I don't think you mentioned him either.

There's certainly reasons to...

It's still potential, but he's shown good signs with the potential.

In all reality, we didn't talk about Konnor Griffin.

Konnor Griffin looking like a legitimate major leaguer.

None of us ever argued that he would be a bust or anything like that, but...

There was always a chance that it could take a little while, like it could take a year or two for him to get to a point where you're comfortable with him every day or not just growing with him.

He looks like a major leaguer right now.

So the waiting periods at least doesn't look there to this point.

Yeah, he's essentially a league average hitter at age twenty.

And you see the impact that he has on games, not only defensively, but on the base paths.

He looks like he's going to be a superstar.

And the maturity.

He already has it.

Yeah, I think.

I know this season hasn't been outstanding by any means.

He's not in any rookie of the year talks, and a lot of that has to do with the injury, but...

Going into this year, we were very cautious on how he would look, debuting at nineteen, playing a full first full season.

one year basically out of high school, we were like, hey, just like don't expect greatness right off the bat.

And he didn't show greatness.

Right.

It wasn't it wasn't like the greatest season ever, but.

for the first seventy six games for someone's career and half of them were at age nineteen I don't know if you can ask for much more than what he's given you And it's just a completely different team

with him, too.

just the dynamic of the team and what they're able to do and the lineups that they're able to put out there when he's out on the field.

They are a significantly better club with Konnor Griffin on the field than without.

it's pretty self-evident.

When Konnor Griffin starts, the Pirates are forty two and thirty three.

The anti-Jose or Marcell Ozuna.

The anti-Marcell Ozuna.

Yep.

Almost called him Jose.

Jose would have been better than Marcelo this year.

By far.

Which Jose are we talking about?

Jose or Zuna?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Both Jose's.

You're right, though.

At least he could pitch.

but no, I think, but again, going back to the what we talked about at the beginning of the year, right?

Like Tyler, you said, I said, if at the beginning of the year, we said, Hey, they're going to win.

They're going to be six games short of a post-season birth.

Konnor Griffin's going to look good.

Braxton Ashcraft's going to look awesome.

Jared Jones is going to look awesome.

Bubba Chandler is just going to get better and better throughout the year.

Like, Mason Montgomery's going to establish himself as just an absolute beast.

Rafael Flores Jr.

is going to look like a legit catcher.

Esmerlyn Valdez is going to come up and rake.

If all these things would have been told to you in March, and it's like, but they're going to miss the postseason.

What happened?

Yeah, but would you have taken it?

Would you have been like, eh, what?

It's a significant improvement, right?

Yeah, I guess.

You're already saying that I believe this team is an eighty three, eighty four win type of team going to miss the playoffs, but they'll be competitive.

Right.

It's not going to be like years past.

I would have questioned, though, like I just said, like if you told me all that, though, like I'm going into this.

And it's baseball, all games he played in, this year proven more than any other year.

I think we've seen like things, variables happen.

there's a lot of variants in play.

who would have thought Paul Skenes would have close to a four year a this year.

If you said that he'd have a three year a, I think all of us would be like, eh, you sure.

Right.

And he did have a three, but I'm saying it's close to like a four, like he almost doubled his ERA.

So like, yeah, he told me all that stuff happened.

I'd have been like, well then what the hell happened?

Like all they needed to have was an average offense.

And the things you're telling me, Jim sounds like they probably had an average offense.

I think things are happening.

So what happened?

And unfortunately we saw what happened.

And, But yeah, I guess I would take it.

I'd be frustrated.

Again, that's why this season is frustrating because there are a lot of individual things that are good.

They're good.

There was definitely production that happened this year.

It just wasn't fruitful to get them anywhere after game one, sixty two.

And that's they need to make sure what happens next year.

But again, as we're talking about.

it does seem as if there's a better foundation this year than it was two years ago, albeit it's two years later.

They should.

Yeah, when I said the eighty-three wins, would I have taken it coming into this year?

No, because I, at that point, didn't think they did enough, and a lot of it had to do with the bullpen, partially with the lack of guys that could hit left-handed pitching, but With that said,

there was variance with that where they could have won eighty eight games.

And I think the guys, at least outside of Paul Skenes in the bullpen, played well enough to win eighty three games.

Like, I don't think you can look at anyone and say they should have done more.

At least hitter wise.

I don't think I can name a single guy that I can really look at and be like, if he would have been made like Horwood.

Yeah.

But even him, like he had a stretch where he was really good.

It was really good.

The first half.

It's just, but when he came back off injury, it just struggled.

I don't know, man.

I think he had like a one thirty two way to run his credit plus before the injury.

Right.

Yeah.

He was the better hitter.

He was walking more than he was striking out.

Yeah.

They built a team that was a pretty good baseball team.

It's just there were too many things that had to be filled, I think, coming off last year that it would have taken...

literally everybody being healthy all year to be able to make the playoffs everything had to go right that's what i think that's even yeah that's part of it right like you can't i don't think you can ever count on just everybody being

healthy all year long like stuff's gonna happen it's a hundred and sixty two game season so which is why baseball's like that right the cream ultimately rises to the top the teams that

have more depth end up end up winning i'll say this like if you would have told me all this stuff at the beginning of the year i would have been encouraged about it all but yeah i don't think i would have

i wouldn't have taken it right because going into the year it was like this is they've got to make the postseason they've got to figure out a way to do it And they didn't.

Plain and simple, they didn't.

They got quite a bit better.

This was a significantly better team than any team that we've seen the Pirates put on the field this decade.

Since Tyler and I joined this podcast, this is the best team that we've talked about.

Since I created it with Ryan, the best team I talked about.

It wasn't good enough.

It needed to be a little bit better.

If everything had gone right, then it would have been good enough.

But this is baseball and that doesn't happen.

They weren't deep enough to overcome the flaws that this team had going into the year, which was clearly the bullpen and left-handed pitching.

And once injuries occurred to the offense, they just didn't have the firepower to keep up with that.

Yeah, I want to push back a little bit because I think there was weaknesses in the bullpen.

But I think all of us felt comfortable enough.

I did.

Tyler did.

I know we all agreed and said, like, I think, and actually it's funny, I think I just saw this recently.

Cody clipped when he did that thing with all of us about the upcoming season, right?

My thing was, my negative was this team's going to miss David Bednar.

And then they did.

I think that was one thing.

This team will miss David Bednar.

However, Santana's here.

He was excellent.

We don't know how Madsen gets through it, but he is, and he's still doing it in spring.

The bullpen should be good enough.

The starters are really good.

Again, I don't think it was so much like they went in here screwed.

It was the fact that once you found out you were screwed, you just didn't do enough.

to fix it like that to me that was the biggest thing it wasn't so much wasn't so much coming in here just saying like this bullpen stinks i think it was it was fine it was probably adequate even higher than adequate that you felt coming in it was just once you found out

that it wasn't you just kept riding it out and Because of that, here we are.

Now, again, if you would have fixed it and added a piece or two in June or something, maybe you're still here.

But at any rate, you gave this team a better shot.

And at the deadline as well, when you absolutely knew, once again, you knew you had an issue.

First left-handed pitching.

Ryan O'Hearn was out, and you're on the verge of DFAing the one guy that you brought in to hit lefties.

And Ozuna, not the Jose one, but Marcel.

they DFA him a few days later.

Like they knew that was coming.

You knew you were going to do that.

And yet you still didn't add another bat.

like to me, that was the biggest problem about this season.

It wasn't so much what you came in entering it.

It was when you entered and started playing the games and found what you did have.

You just sat there and watched it happen.

They watched it happen to the point where.

Other holes started popping up, so by the time I plugged that hole, you're screwed.

And the trade deadline show we talked about, Austin Hayes was an option.

And he is hitting extremely well in San Diego.

They all are.

Every option that we talked about.

Pretty much everyone but Taylor Ward.

Everyone that we talked about except for Taylor Ward.

And that was the one we said that doesn't make sense.

Because he's an everyday player.

He ain't going to cost more.

And none of those guys cost a lot.

They were all cheap.

No.

If they just do one more thing right, they're probably in the dance.

Maybe two.

But if Marcell Ozuna doesn't happen in that spin elsewhere, who knows?

they fixed the bullpen sooner.

Like, the margin of error, I know it's one, and the cream does rise to the top, but they were very close.

it's just a few inches this way, a few inches that way, but they were obvious things to fix, which is where the frustration lies.

Yeah.

just want to say there's been so many clips of this show that it just goes so wrong things you've been saying how they're all show long honestly it's been terrible if this is mason

cameron right now they would not be able to get through this episode anyways continuing i don't even know what i said there yeah well

Do we talk about this rotation a little bit more?

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Because I think that's the piece where...

Like I said, if we're talking about where this team really made strides, I think this rotation did a really good job of just...

easing our minds going into next year.

I guess the biggest question really is like with Paul Skenes, do we expect him to bounce back?

Because he did talk after his last start, not this one today, but the one before, where he talked about how the World Baseball Classic definitely threw him off.

And that could be an excuse.

I don't know.

Paul Skenes isn't necessarily a guy to make excuses.

He's pretty much, for the most part, owned up to.

He hasn't had anything to make an excuse of.

He's been perfect.

So when he says the World Baseball Classic certainly has affected him, Next year, no World Baseball Classic.

So is the expectation just, all right, Paul, figure out what went wrong this year, fix it over the offseason, and then go back to being yourself next year?

Is that what we're expecting out of Paul or maybe a little bit in the middle?

What do we think in there?

All right, Ty.

if you're not expecting it, then what the hell are we doing here?

Like, I think we all have to expect it.

And I don't think he's given us a reason not to.

He's been lights out for two years, and he had a down year this year.

It's felt like all year an issue that would have to be fixed over the offseason.

Like, velocity is not something you can just fix in the middle of the year.

No World Baseball Classic, I think, will probably help no matter how we slice it, whether it was that did it or maybe he didn't take it that serious in the offseason.

Maybe there's some fatigue there.

I don't know.

As long as it's not an injury, and I think that's the major caveat here, is that as long as there's no damage to him, I think I expect him to be back and Not sub-two ERA Paul Skenes,

but I think you get back an ace version of him.

What does ace version of Paul Skenes mean to you?

Sub-three.

Okay.

So that's why...

So I'm glad you answered that because that's how I wanted to approach this.

Like when you say, are we to expect?

the thing was, every year we started, you can't just expect...

a one nine ERA from Paul Skenes.

what?

Like you just can't expect this.

So if he has like a mid two ERA, like that's still very good.

That's what I want to know.

Like, what are the expectations?

This supernatural Paul Skenes or just like, Hey, what an MLB ace looks like.

And so with you answering that question, I agree.

Like I expect Paul Skenes to be going back to, you are the ace of this pirate staff, which has a very good competitive staff.

Braxton Ashcraft was that guy this year.

You talk about Alex and his shows.

Alex talked about Braxton and how he very well could be the better pitcher next year as well, too.

He has that in him.

It's not to take away from Paul or anything like that, but...

Bubba Chandler you saw.

Jarrett Jones you saw.

There's definitely competition on who's going to be the best pitcher next year.

I expect Paul Skenes to be the best pitcher.

Is that the two-five ERA?

Is that a two-six, two-seven-five ERA?

It could very well be.

That's still very good.

I don't think we can expect Paul Skenes to go back to having a one-nine ERA.

However, Paul, if you want to do that, we'll take it.

I'll gladly accept that.

what?

That could be a thank you.

fans for putting up with this year.

So I'm going to give you a one-ninety again next year because this power team could certainly use it.

They're going to have playoffs next year, but right.

Like I expect Paul Skenes to going back to being, Hey, I'm the ace of the staff and give us that.

So, yeah, I think that is the expectation and I don't, there's nothing that screams injury to me.

Like you're saying, Tyler, I think it's just absolute malpractice on all parties if he was and he's still pitching here.

So the fact that he was still pitching over and over and over, I don't think it's injury-related as well.

So just go back to your offseason.

Do your workout.

Don't have to change anything because of the WBC.

Come back to the St.

Paul Skenes that you've always been.

Yeah, to reiterate what both of you said, I don't think it's fair to expect a sub-two ERA out of anybody at all.

But a sub-three ERA is what I expect Paul Skenes to do.

Be in that two-point-six, two-point-seven, two-point-eight range.

You're that good of a pitcher, Paul.

That's where you should be.

He finishes this season with a three-point-eight-two earned run average, which Again, one hundred and seventy four innings, a three point eight to ERA.

You struck out two hundred people like you're still that's top ten pitcher in baseball.

Like that's what he is.

But it's like, all right, time to go back to being a top two or three guy.

It's time to go back to, hey, who's better, Paul Skenes or whoever the random guy is that year putting up a sub two ERA that obviously isn't going to keep it up

because no one can do it.

That's what we need to do with Paul Skenes.

And yeah, I'm with you.

I expect him to do that next year.

The type of pitcher he is, type of player he is, type of competitor he is.

I fully expect Paul Skenes to be a better pitcher next year than he was this year.

And then you look at the rest of the rotation, right?

Like, Jared Jones has one more start, but three, eight, seven ERA.

He's striking out a ton of batters.

He's also, like, got dialed in his control.

He's not walking as many people anymore.

I love what we've seen out of Jared Jones here down the stretch.

Braxton Ashcraft, you mentioned, like, putting together a hundred and sixty-five innings this year and doing what he did like there's no reason for me to think he can't do that again or maybe even

take a little step forward Bubba Chandler just keeps getting better and better and better every start it seems and he's only what Bubba's twenty-three years old

This is like his fourth year pitching full time in his life.

I guess he just turned twenty four.

Just turned twenty four.

Bubba did two weeks ago.

But September.

Yeah.

Like and then Mitch Keller, if they decide to keep him.

He's the guy where it's like, OK, Mitch, you can't suck like you did this year.

Can't do that again.

If he's just his career norm, then this staff, if Mitch Keller is this team's number five starter, then they're in a really good spot.

They're in a really good spot.

Yeah, I really like where this rotation's at right now.

Tyler, you mentioned earlier that you're concerned that they won't do anything to address it.

I have a feeling that they're going to have, like if they do really want to bring back Brandon Lowe, I don't think there's a way that both Mitch Keller and Brandon Lowe are on this team next year.

I don't think it's possible.

So if you bring back Brandon Lowe somehow, you're not, like Mitch Keller's not here.

which means then you got to do something.

I don't think you can just roll with either Carmen Mlodzinski, three point Oh, starting pitcher or, don't even bring it up or Antwone Kelly or Wilbert hotel.

Like, I don't think you can just roll with that.

Like you do need to bring someone else in.

so it's going to be, it's going to depend on what happens there, but yeah, I feel really strongly about this rotation heading into next year.

I think it's, I think it's going to be one of the better units in baseball.

Even I'm, I was high on it going into this season.

I'm higher on it going into next season.

And I think when you look at it, Jim, like the two you mentioned there, like the Paul Skenes and the Bubba Chandlers of the world, and Braxton Ashcroft as well, but Braxton, I think, on a lesser scale just because of the injury history.

But I think when you look at Paul Skenes, you want twenty five more innings out of him.

He needs to be a two hundred inning guy.

You look at Bubba Chandler.

Can he get there?

Maybe not next year.

I think he should be close, like one hundred and eighty plus.

I think you should be able to get out of Bubba.

You got two guys who are legitimate workhorses, I think, who should be able to get close to that two hundred inning mark.

Should take a load off things.

Of course, injuries happen, but quickly to go back to the other part of the rotation issues.

Well, what I might think of issues.

I think you have to find a way to move on from Mitch.

I think you have to get a left arm, left handed arm in this rotation.

I think.

think that really started to pop up this year like teams stacked lefties against them which might have worked out at some points for the pirates because some of those young guys got to really work on

that like i think we saw jared jones get better against lefties throughout the year maybe because of the amount he saw same with bubba so maybe it was a growing pain that somehow got thrown at the pirates that made them better but i

think you have to find a lefty next year Yeah.

Let me add on to that.

This year, we all know the talent that existed with the rotation.

That's why we're excited.

But it was always going to be a worry because of innings.

And that's why Mitch Keller was so important.

Mitch Keller could absolutely stabilize that.

Paul Skenes would give you the innings.

Mitch Keller is here to give you innings.

That way, it's like, let's figure out three through five.

Let's get creative.

Probably going to have to.

We got the really modern innings.

And the problem is, too, is if you're going to the playoffs, there's still more innings that you got to add on to.

This year, they all pretty much got him.

Tyler went down the inning and such.

Jared Jones didn't.

I know there's injury, but if that's the one guy that you're going to have to still worry about to some level, he's also not a child anymore, but the injury exists.

He hasn't truly built up.

He's been out of baseball for a bit of time.

There's that, but yes, they're all going to basically be at a hundred and fifty plus.

Going into next year, it's not so much how do you manage.

It's like, okay, you have a stable of horses now.

To Tyler's point, especially because the talent that exists and they all have the innings and you trust these guys, like Mitch Keller isn't as needed for this rotation.

So if you want to free up some money, it's either him or Bryan Reynolds, basically.

And which one would you desire to keep over the other?

It's probably Bryan Reynolds, especially if you are losing allow.

You don't want to lose to your top offensive players, right?

So, yes, like Mitch Keller makes a lot of sense.

What sucks is you'll be trading him at his lowest.

Also, what does that trade even look like?

What are you even getting in return?

Do you have to give to even dump that contract?

We'll find out what that is, but at least that frees up some money.

Then you can address other needs and such.

But it's like we always go back to the Pirates have done well with lefties.

PNC Park plays well with lefties.

They don't have a lefty in the rotation.

So a lefty makes sense because you can probably pay for someone that can play up.

And it's like, if you go out there and re-replace, we always go back to like the Jose Quintana type, but it's like, if you can spend six million dollars to get a Mitch Keller replacement and a lefty, like that's a net seven million dollars you recoup, basically,

that you can use elsewhere.

And it's like, if you get that Jose Quintana type as a lefty, do you feel he would probably give you the same thing that Mitch Kelly can give you as a five-star next year?

Probably.

So I think it makes a ton of sense, unfortunately, at this time, because I love Mitch.

Also, good dude.

But for this team, with that contract and the uncertainty of next year, I think he's going to bounce back and be a fine pitcher again.

But I think they can reallocate those funds in a manner that would be more sufficient than on a fifth starter.

I agree.

I agree.

And to the people who think that there won't be teams interested in Mitch Keller, I think you're wrong.

There are a lot of teams out there who will look at Mitch Keller's overall body of work throughout his career and say, yeah, we could use that.

And it may not be much of a return for the Pirates.

It would be a pure salary dump.

But I don't think it's going to be difficult to find a team to take Mitch Keller off your hands if you're wanting to unload him.

you just look like across baseball, like there are starting pitchers who are signed for that amount of money every year who aren't that great.

just like, just look at last year, for example, like I went like Zach gallon, for example, last year coming off a rough year,

People pay a lot of money for starting pitchers who have proven over the course of their career that they can just pitch a bunch of innings.

And Mitch has done that over and over and over again.

And he's done it at a level where he's been effective.

Has he been an ace?

No, but he's been league average.

Mitch Keller throughout his career has been a pretty solid number three starter.

He allows you to win essentially almost every game that he's there.

again he's led the league remember the league but like over like the past four years he's in the upper like five pitchers or something like quality starts coming into this year i'm like that's just what he does he just goes out there puts in his six innings plus gives you

an opportunity to win and he leaves and does he have an occasional blow up sure every pitcher does But that's what Mitch does.

He's been a dog.

He's Mr. Reliable.

You have him.

And again, I know this year was different.

Obviously, he was injured for the first time.

But you just know what you're getting.

And for a manager and a GM, that is impactful.

If I know what I'm getting this guy, then I can start building around.

Yeah, to that point, since twenty two, Mitch Keller is eleventh in Major League Baseball and quality starts eleven right smack in between Max Freed and Aaron Nola.

It sucks, but it's one of those where if you do it right and you reallocate those resources and find probably a lefty starter that can give you similar production like it,

whatever the return is, doesn't matter.

it can still be a win for the pirates.

It's just one of those sucky spots.

Like I'd love to keep Mitch forever.

They're just in a spot where the other four guys are pretty good.

And I don't really love having five righties, especially one that's making fifteen, eighteen million, whatever it is.

I think you can address this without even going to the free agency market.

What they did with Brandon Lowe, go find a left-handed pitcher who was in the last year of his deal or last year of arbitration.

There are going to be teams out there that are seemingly out of it who have guys that they'd be willing to trade for a couple prospects.

I know Reid Detmers name is being mentioned a lot in the comments here.

that's like a fever dream, right?

Getting Reid Detmers, but that's going all out there.

Hey, why not?

Why not?

But you also have to add depth at the starting pitching spot.

And having Mitch there with all that money...

It clogs up a spot if you make a trade, even if it's not for that fifth starter.

If you sign one in the free agent market, maybe you get a swing guy.

Maybe you ship Carmen Mlodzinski's ass the hell out of here.

There's more options.

Maybe you ship Carmen Mlodzinski's ass out of here.

Carmen can be pretty useful, though, too, when used properly.

In the bullpen, which can be our next topic.

I'm excited.

This bullpen's not finished.

But I'm excited.

Twenty-five straight appearances without a run from Mason Montgomery.

He's got everything.

He does have everything.

He does have everything.

He must be really focused.

He must be... He seems very focused.

...in his life.

And a lot of people are using Larine.

A lot of people use nicotine pouches.

And sometimes the routine itself is a big part of it.

That's where Larine Co

comes in.

They've created a pouch that keeps the routine but leaves the nicotine out.

Each pouch has fifty milligrams of caffeine, which is about a half a cup of coffee designed to give you smooth, steady focus like Mason Montgomery.

And because it's Larine, the pouches also support your enamel while they're in.

They come in mint, cinnamon, and mango, and it's nicotine-free always.

Give Larine a try right now.

Larine Co

is offering our listeners up to fifty percent off at buylarine.com slash North Shore.

That's buylarine.com slash North Shore, L-A-R-I-N-E dot com for up to fifty percent off.

Got to get a little smoother there on the ad read, but I put the gum in.

I was trying to tee you up.

I didn't know if you had it or not.

I have it up, but you started doing it, so I figured maybe you're ready to go.

I wasn't ready to go.

I was audible-ing because you started talking about Mason Montgomery.

Well, hey.

Who has been ready to go.

Who has been ready to go.

Speaking of the bullpen, you just never know when you'll be caught upon, Jim.

Just got to be ready.

I had to warm up quickly there.

Fireman outing.

So, yeah, you mentioned, but you mentioned Mason Montgomery, twenty fifth scoreless outing in a row today.

Three pitchers.

This is a stat I saw from our friend Ethan Fisher on Twitter.

Three pitchers this year have had twenty five consecutive scoreless appearances.

Mason Montgomery is one of them.

Luke Weaver is another one.

So the pirates have the pirates have two of the three guys that fit that criteria.

And no one's done more than twenty five this year.

So if Mason Montgomery is one more scoreless appearance, it will be the longest consecutive scoreless appearance streak in Major League Baseball this year.

what a success story again he was the guy that was just in that trade everyone knows Brandon Lowe no one knew who jake mangum was no one knew who mason montgomery was But, Mangum played last year,

and he had a productive season.

Can he replicate that?

What is he?

Who knows?

He's a twenty-nine-year-old rookie who hit, league average, solid defense, weird swing, swings at everything.

What's he going to be?

But you had faith that he could be something.

Mason Montgomery was a player a lot of guys were like, a five ERA?

Walks everyone?

We got another of these guys.

Get him out of here.

He stinks.

But there's intrigue there.

And again...

I don't think anyone realized this was what was waiting to be unlocked.

again, if he saw his ceiling, I don't think any of us could have seen this was what that is.

even if we talked about the ceiling a good bit, just because he's a lefty arm out of the pen with a fastball that lights up a scoreboard.

He lights up radar guns everywhere he's at.

The impressive part, I think, as well, has been... Well, other than the command that he's developed throughout this year.

Obviously, that's number one.

But number two, I think the impressive part has been the mentality of it.

We talk a lot about...

Closers in general, and it's been a thing forever of you put Tony Watson in the ninth inning, people complain because he doesn't have that mentality.

Right, wrong, indifferent, whatever you want to say, but Mason Montgomery has taken the ball and ran with it.

They put him in the ninth-inning spot.

He did not give it up, and I think that's been, aside from the command, the most impressive part is that he didn't even make this a competition.

There was discussions about whether Luke Weaver or Mason Montgomery would be that guy in the ninth because it was wide open.

He didn't give Luke Weaver a chance.

He just shut the door immediately, and he's a dude.

Plain and simple, he is a dude.

also he knows his plants you stay away from the poison ivy gotta trust the guy who knows his poison ivy yeah he's

been he's been a dog and i think all of us like said we knew this stuff was there And we saw it in spring training, too.

We talked about it from the get-go.

When this dude is throwing strikes, he's borderline unhittable.

But the problem was he was just throwing the ball all over the place.

You couldn't trust this guy in a close game.

In the first couple months of the year...

You also couldn't really trust him.

you look at his monthly splits, right?

March and April, three, eight ERA, but May four, six, June six, five, two, again, ERA over six in June.

But then it was just like, Just like that.

And it was really when he started throwing the sinker.

He added the sinker to his repertoire, and he became absolutely dominant.

Just flat-out dominant.

Since July twenty-seventh, again, twenty-five scoreless appearances, twenty-four and two-thirds innings, thirty-seven strikeouts, only seven walks in that time period.

whip of zero point six five hasn't thrown a wild pitch in that timeframe.

Like when you have that nasty stuff, you assume that stuff happens.

Like he's just, he's become a really good, well-rounded pitcher in this time too.

Whereas before it was just, he can overpower you with stuff.

And now it's like, he's confident.

He's thrown the ball where he wants to.

He's got multiple pitches he can use to get you out.

He's, I, he's a top five relief pitcher in baseball, in my opinion.

Like, he's, I think he's that good.

He's that good.

And he's been the best pitcher and he's been the best relief pitcher in baseball.

The second half of the season.

Yeah.

I want to take this like a step further just because I think, and it's no fault, right?

What you said does a little bit of an injustice, right?

Because you make it, and again, you go month by month, numbers are where they are.

But he had back-to-back appearances, two earned and three earned in June second and third, which killed the June ERA.

After that, he was also lights out.

So we're like, since June, since we talked about the twenty-five appearances right again, since June sixth, June six, forty-three point one innings.

He's allowed six earned runs.

Yes.

There was another outing.

We had two earned runs, in June and such, like it wasn't perfect in June.

Like he's been, he's been perfect.

He's been perfect.

He didn't finish June out.

Perfect.

But he still finished it very well.

So I'm just sitting here to try to say, like, he's actually been doing this even longer than that really shows.

June was still a really good month after the third.

Actually, maybe it was the fifth.

Because I had it since June sixth year.

But regardless, he had, like, back-to-back appearances.

We gave up, what, the five earned runs there.

... And I say this, too, because June was that month where you, like, saw that transition.

He was being used as, like, the opener, like, this...

He's being used more creatively, I felt like.

And I think that was maybe helping him progress.

Like, I think...

some level i think you can attribute him being an opener helping maybe a little bit just you have routine what's going up there you can you're having good outings maybe

trusting yourself building that confidence then you're getting more into more high leverage spots you can talk about the two seamers while being added like i just think it was a combination of maybe a lot of things going here and then them believing in him to doing more and

then we just saw what we saw.

And like you said, Tyler, when that trade deadline came, that was a big question.

A lot of people, I think I remember you and I on a postgame show talking about it.

Like my whole thought process was, I want to see Montgomery as the closer just because routine, like he's younger, he's newer, like at least let him, nobody's getting himself into.

And my thing was like, use Weaver and Andrew Miller type role.

You can go all over the place.

He's the veteran.

He can, wherever you need them, I'm ready.

I'm ready to go.

But it was more just because I want to let the kid get in a routine.

It's not because I thought he was better than Luke Weaver.

He's going to call me Andrew Miller again.

It was the routines.

He has now made it look as we're all still even entertaining it because he's clearly hands down better than Luke Weaver, who is the most coveted pitcher at the

trade deadline.

And as Jim says, the other pitcher had a.

He's been that good.

And I think it's without question.

Who are the people you're putting above Montgomery now as far as believers in baseball outside of like Mason Miller?

Who?

I know it's subjective.

I know it's an opinion of top five, but it's just like, but let's honestly, if you go without question right now, if you filter second half statistics,

Mason Montgomery leads all relievers in war.

All he's number one.

Number two is Josh hater.

Number three is Mason Miller.

You go, ERA, Mason Montgomery, best in baseball, zero point six four second half ERA.

Cade Smith has is tied with him.

But like you're looking at every everything that you look at here, K percent strikeout percentage.

It's Mason Miller, Andres Munoz, Mason Montgomery.

He's top three in pretty much every category that exists for relief pitchers.

since the All-Star break.

He's four and oh since the All-Star break.

That's something, right?

He's getting put into games where they're either losing or they're tied, and he's pitching a scoreless inning, and he's contributing to the team winning.

He has fifteen saves after today, sixteen saves, which means the only two pitchers in baseball with more saves than him since the deadline are David Bednar and Emilio

Pagan.

Like he's, he is an elite reliever right now.

Elite.

It's been worth two war as a reliever and he's got almost a four win probability added.

Like the numbers are silly too, which also don't look, but Mason Miller's worth like four war as a reliever.