The GM the Pirates Didn’t Hire Is in the World Series

Yo, welcome to the Norse for Nine podcast presented by FanDuel, I'm Anthony DiNardo, with me we got Ty, I'm in a hotel,

you're not, we have no gym, this is really awkward, this is really weird, but, hi.

You're so bright, compared to usual.

Well, yeah.

As in your background.

And I'm like, I'm trying to work with hotel lighting for actual, like, lighting here.

Yeah, like, you actually look normal.

Well, I was gonna say, this is actually solid lighting I put together.

It's actually great lighting.

Yeah.

Like, if you had a backdrop, like, I got, like, the actual, like, lamp here, and, like, facing me, and...

No, I think...

Some ambiance, it's not too bad.

Yeah.

Like, from one, from an Airbnb to a hotel, travel a man.

This has been a rough three weeks for me.

I honestly just want to be home.

Here we go.

What's that?

The baseball season ended, and here we go.

I know.

I was out of town, then I was back home, but my parents and aunt was in town, then they left and went to Arizona, then I came back.

Now I'm here in South Carolina again.

I didn't want to be home, but the show must go on.

And the show does go on.

And here we are with the Brewers playing the Rays for potentially the last game of the year.

That is happening.

I need to turn that on right now.

I was going to say, I'm using my phone right now for...

I can't even look at my phone.

I'll pull this up here.

Yeah.

What are we doing right now?

You know what?

I feel like we're all a post-season mess here.

We've...

First off, it's good to see you.

Well, I meant more of what we're doing as part of the game.

So it's still 1-0 Milwaukee.

So there's the...

Well, regard...

DiNardo, let me...

It's good to see you again, buddy.

It's been a while.

It has.

Obviously, I wasn't in Arizona.

You saw some good stuff.

Wyatt Sanford seemed to have a nice night.

Like, you saw some good stuff as you lay back in your bed.

Alex has some good conversations that are coming out right now.

Check out Offbeat.

Yeah, it seems like you guys had a good trip there.

It was a good trip.

It was definitely fun.

it was a good trip in total.

It could have been bad in the sense of, again, when we got there, if you watched all the content we put out, like, the first game was called because of weather.

Like, we went to Arizona, and it was called because of weather.

Right.

So we didn't get to see the whole game.

Then the second game played well.

Wyatt Sanford started.

Third game, when we got there, was the triple header.

The first game, it was raining again.

But it cleared up.

It was a beautiful day afterwards.

But it's like, two out of three games that were there was actual rain happening in Arizona.

Like, it like, I felt like last year, Tyler, you were with us that year.

Yep.

We saw, I feel like, three games last year, too.

Am I right?

We saw more than, well, we had three days, but there was a day where we went and saw a triple header.

You will say, yeah.

And it was actually, we, I feel like Salt River had a day game, and they left there to go to Mason, I think, to watch a night game.

Because Axel Plads.

So, I guess, like, we saw more games.

What I'm alluding to was last year, we went for Salt River, because the Pirates were with Salt River.

I think it was three games.

They didn't have an off day.

So, we were going to just three games this year, too, with an off day.

But the reason I'm asking this is I felt like we saw Esmerlin and Tony Blanco in, like, every game.

Right.

Like, Wyatt played one game that we saw.

Easton played one game that we saw.

Severino did play two.

The relievers, we only saw two relievers, and it was in one game.

So, like, I just felt that was the negative, I guess, of this trip, was, like, no one was really playing in these games.

Yeah.

That thing.

And we're probably fortunate last year with the way Esmerlin was playing.

But also, we did see Blanco a good bit.

Like, he played every game.

Yeah.

Pretty much, I feel like.

Like, I thought, at least, Wyatt might play two.

Easton, I get, like, a catcher.

Maybe a catcher move or two as well was just one.

But, like, again, there's relievers everywhere.

You need relievers.

But the tripleheader was seven innings, of course.

The first game was cut short.

So, it was just six innings, too.

So, it was like you minimized the ability to watch some relievers as well.

So, basically, the Arizona Fall League screwed over NS9.

Cool.

Yeah, that's clearly what I'm going with here.

But, anyway.

They came out of their way.

We did get a good bit of content.

Alex certainly got a good bit of content, too.

At least from my perspective here of going down last year.

Like, they are terrific down there.

Like, the way they handle all the Arizona Fall League, it was lights out good.

Oh, yeah.

Based on your reaction there, I'm assuming it was the same way this year.

Yeah, for sure.

everyone who's running that is just grade A.

Like, superb.

I can't get enough credit for all the people that are there coordinating stuff.

They're just wonderful to work with.

And, again, the atmosphere is just, it's unique.

It was the same.

I feel like it was a little bit more exciting.

There's a little more fans this year.

Maybe it's just the Salt River thing that it was just, like, completely dead there.

But, also, there was more night games that we saw this year opposed to last year, too, I think.

So, in that retrospect, but, yeah.

Maybe just a hair full of a little more fans than we had last year.

But still super quiet, super romantic in that sense.

Super intimate.

Yes, very intimate.

Jim and I were getting very intimate at the Arizona Ballery.

And that's what everybody asks for.

Jim and I were getting intimate.

But, anyway, we got some things that we can talk about today.

We never really had, like, that Ben Cherington as a back show.

It just...

Yeah, we just...

I feel like last year, though, we had that show two days after the season where it was announced.

They're all coming back.

We never really even had that announcement.

It was just...

Yeah, they're coming back, by the way.

Yeah.

Was it ever even really announced?

Well, I think that's the thing, too, is, like, it...

I think it's more technically more assumed right now because I don't think technically they've come out and stamped it like he is returning.

It's just, like, well, he's not getting fired.

Right.

Which, I agree, is probably going to happen.

The reason I'm saying this is, technically speaking, this is what happened with the last regime as well.

Hurdle was fired.

Yeah.

We knew that.

And it was, like, yeah, they're just back because they're not fired.

And, yeah, so I think we never, like he said, we never really had to show like that because it was never, like, announced, like, all right, we retained or we extended or anything like that.

They're just still here.

But, yeah, and here we are today on what could be and probably will be the end of the World Series.

And it sounds like we're running this bad boy back and we've had some moves with it.

Not moves, I guess, but a little bit of a shake up on the coaching staff, a little bit, I guess.

A little bit.

And I want to start there, too.

The Pirates did bring in a new pitching.

We say voice, technically, because it's like we're not quite sure what he's going to be.

a coach of some sort.

He's going to be in the – it sounds like in the upper levels of the minor leagues in some capacity, which, Sean Buchanan hired from the Astros system.

He was the AAA pitching coach.

Also, like, I think a minor league also – or pitching coordinator.

Gosh, let me bring it back up now, too.

Yeah, he's a baseball coach.

It was more than just the AAA pitching coach.

Assistant pitching coordinator, I believe.

There it is.

Yeah.

So, again, he wasn't, like, just the AAA coach.

He was the AAA coach.

But, yes, he was also the Astros assistant pitching coordinator.

So, like, I feel like there's something I want to – we should talk and discuss about with him.

Because, again, there's some unknown.

And because he also had, like, expanded role with Houston, I would only imagine that he's probably going to have more than, like, a AAA pitching coach in Indianapolis role with the Pirates, too.

It'll be expanded in some way or some level.

Yeah, at least I think – I don't – Colin said, basically, Colin Beasley of the Post Gazette, I believe, said he would be implemented in the upper levels of the minors.

Mm-hmm.

And with that, I guess it follows hiring Bill Murphy of last year from the Astros as well, which we had our thoughts about throughout this year.

Right, wrong, indifferent.

I don't know.

Still don't know.

we're only talking about one year.

And I know how – what our opinions were of Oscar Marin in his first year.

They weren't good.

They weren't good.

We didn't have good opinions.

Can I also – can I also add this?

Think about – because you're right.

Oscar Marin, same thing.

Even, like, Matt Haig.

Think about Matt Haig last year.

Right.

Yeah.

What are we doing here?

And then a year later, look at this offense.

So, I'm glad you bring that up because I think that's something that we can certainly touch on.

That's something that puts some perspective on all of this with.

It is.

And, like, to be fair, when we talked about Bill Murphy throughout this year, there wasn't a lot of positive that came out of any of our mouths.

And was that fair?

Maybe not.

But the results are the results.

And this bullpen sucked.

And there was not – let's be honest.

Braxton Ashcraft is the only dude that got better.

And with him, even with Braxton Ashcraft, we've talked about him for a while.

There was always more there.

Like, he's been a dude for a while.

It's been the health part of it.

Right.

I don't want to discredit Bill Murphy with that, but at the same time, Braxton Ashcraft was really good when he came up his rookie year.

I think Bill Murphy still remains to be seen.

I question how much he had to do with the Astros' pitching success.

And that's more of just what – just some whispers from people around baseball.

like, there are questions of, what did he really do there?

And those questions are going to be asked when you have a staff that performed the way they did this year, and they take a step back.

Sure.

With Sean Buchanan, it's probably not completely fair to compare him to Bill Murphy and label them together.

But they're going to be, no matter what, because they're both coming from the Astros, back-to-back years.

They're going to be tied to the hip, no matter how we look at this.

They're going to be tied together, because they're both coming from the same organization.

I guess my question to Nardo is, what – is there anything really, like, eye-opening with this guy?

Because I don't really have an opinion either way at this point, but at least it seems like there's some positives people are referring to.

Yeah, I think it's one of those things, too, which is, like, we don't really know.

it's almost like – even last year with Bill Murphy, like, we don't know.

There's this, there's this.

You can talk about these things.

This is why you might like them.

like, we – and not even – when he was hired, we talked about this, but when we went to spring training, Braxton Ashcraft being one of them.

Like, I'm going to have him – when I was talking with Braxton, he went into depth about this.

But it was, like, he is very analytical, but he also understands the analytics and how to relay the analytics to the people.

how do you – it's one thing to know this, but how do you give it in a digestible way that, your people can understand it and implement it and buy into stuff, right?

So, like, that's all important.

And, again, like, he comes from the Astros system, like, that in itself.

The other thing about that, too, was – God, now I'm going to forget his name, but who was the assistant pitching coach to Oscar Marin?

Bill, not Bill.

Parking lot that – we'll get back to the actual name, but he, well-respected for many years, and we know what he did with that Astrosystems, a la Gerrit Cole, right?

Justin Verlander, like, we knew what he did with that Astrosystems.

He also was a big – Brent Strom, there it is.

Thank you, gosh.

He also was a big proponent of bringing in Bill Murphy.

Like, he had his back.

So, it's like, you have some pedigree.

And that – Brent Strom saying, hey, I believe in this guy.

I'm leaving your organization.

I'm done here.

But, like, that's the dude I would recommend that comes with something.

So, I say all this in a sense of, again, going back to the Matt Hay, going back to the first year of Oscar Marin and such.

I don't know if it's truly fair to label this year as a failure for Bill Murphy.

It certainly wasn't a success.

We all know that.

Right.

I'm not sure if we're ready to label it a failure.

The players really wanted him.

They advocated for him.

They liked him in spring training.

You can even go down this night.

Yes, a lot of people didn't improve.

You mentioned Braxton Ashcraft did.

Yes.

Also, Mason Montgomery was certainly one.

he was from another organization.

He comes in.

We saw what he did, too.

Like, I don't know if you can stamp a pitching coach as a full success because two players improved while everyone else got worse.

But, again, maybe some of this stuff takes time.

Matt Haig came in, and there was already an awful hitting situation.

He comes in.

It was still awful, and it's like, it's terrible.

Move on.

He's awful.

And then the next year, they have one of the better offenses in baseball.

And, yes, they added Brandon Lowe.

Yes, they added, just a few minimal pieces around him.

But, like, you saw everyone else improve.

So, like, maybe there's still something in there.

Maybe next year it comes out better.

To go back to this hiring and such, like, do I know much about him?

I don't.

But some things that do stand out, he flew through the minor league system.

he flew within four years.

He started a complex lead.

He was in AAA.

And, again, not just AAA, but he was an assistant pitching coordinator for the Astros.

So they saw more than just, here's a pitching coach.

While he was in the PCL for two years, they had one of the better ERAs, one of the better whips, one of the more.

if they weren't first, they were second each of the two years in the PCL, which is a hard-pitching league, right?

But he was either first or second in ERA, whip, and batting average against.

And also, it's unique here.

And I want to ask you this, too.

He actually started as a hitting coach.

Like, he was a hitting coach.

Then he came to the Astros organization as a pitching coach.

Is there something in that, too?

I think it helps.

But is it the end-all be-all?

No.

I think having that perspective is definitely something valuable.

Not at the same time.

How many times do you have to go to the Astros to get a pitching coach that doesn't work?

Like, I forgot Brent Strom existed.

Yeah.

How many times do we got to do this?

We're just going to hire everybody from the Astros.

But Brent, I thought, was a very valuable addition.

I did like him.

And I did, too.

And I thought the same thing about Bill Murphy.

Right.

I'm sure this guy's a bright mind as well.

I'm sure he does ball.

He does pitching.

He's a smart guy.

You don't get to this position if you're not.

Comparing him to Matt Haig, though, and maybe even Bill Murphy to Matt Haig, Matt Haig got a lot better hitters.

Bill Murphy already had good pitchers.

They got worse.

But let me push back on you.

Because that is, that's fair.

That's fair.

But Oneil Cruz, Bryan Reynolds, like the guys that were here, they got better.

Fair.

You say they added more pieces.

What did they truly add?

I know they added Brandon Lowen.

Yes, he's a huge addition for the offense.

Brian O'Hearn.

Brandon, or Brandon.

Brian O'Hearn, who also missed a few months.

And then you had Valdez come up.

You had Flores come up.

And you had Carter Griffin arrive.

And they were doing something that we never see.

They came up and they were hitting.

Right?

That might be fair.

I'm just giving devil's advocate right here.

Yeah.

No, that might be fair.

Because in all reality, what did they add?

Like, they added pieces.

But it did take some internal guys getting better.

And not even getting better.

Just getting back to the lower they were normally at.

Which is basically what we're asking the Pirates pitching staff to do.

Get back to where you were.

So, that might be fair.

I don't know.

I just feel like.

I guess third time's a charm.

Maybe.

He's not going to be at the major league level from what it seems.

Which, to be fair with that, I think that's something the Pirates might be missing right now.

Is that upper level.

Because this year, that's where we saw the drop off.

Like, we saw Antwone Kelly not be the Antwone Kelly that.

Like, he wasn't a top prospect.

But he's.

He's better than what he showed.

And then, like, Christian.

Khristian Curtis as well.

Like, there's.

There's guys up.

Wilber Dotel.

Like, they showed stuff.

But you didn't see the package get put together.

Mm-hmm.

So,.

Maybe this helps that part of it.

Because they do have at least talent at that level.

Like, they have talent there.

It's just.

You gotta.

You gotta find that diamond in the rough a little bit.

Like, that guy that's not a true top 100 prospect.

The Wilber Dotel.

The.

God, go down and look at the World Series right now.

How many of these guys were top 100 prospects?

Not many.

Right.

You gotta find those.

And.

Yeah.

When they get there, you gotta make sure they can get there.

Like, you need the Jared Joneses of the world to arrive.

Yeah.

So, again.

Like, I don't have this huge opinion on him.

I don't think anyone really should.

Unless you're close to their system in Arizona.

In Houston and whatnot.

Right.

But, again.

Like, with that said.

There are some pieces.

There are some interesting things.

there is this track record.

There is some success.

Another thing I do want to point out.

Is, like, in a personal, actual.

Product.

Peter Lambert.

If you know who Peter Lambert is.

I do.

Because we talk about the Strat League.

He was a Colorado Rockies.

Pitching prospect.

Ryan has the Rockies.

I have the Marlins.

I traded for Peter Lambert.

And he's been trash.

So, I can tell you firsthand.

Peter Lambert has been trash.

He has been awful.

He lands in the Houston Astros organization.

And, apparently, he and Sean link up.

And, Sean tells him.

Basically, he wants him to pitch closer on the rubber, I think, to the third base side.

And, he adds a cutter.

I want you to start throwing a cutter versus lefties.

So, he has Peter Lambert also add a cutter to his repertoire.

And, Peter Lambert had a solid season.

He actually had 29 starts for the Astros at a 3.82 ERA.

So, like, and, again, go back to Peter Lambert's numbers beforehand and such.

Like, that was productive.

So, again, like, there's a personal success story here.

Something to actually attribute him to.

Like, what have you actually done?

There's something to put out there.

Again, this is not me to say, like, okay, yes, this is a slam dunk hiring.

But, there are some things here that we can actually talk about because there's not much that any of us really know about him, in general.

So, yeah, there's, again, there's some interesting things.

The Houston Astros organization is one of the top-notch organizations, especially when it comes to pitching.

So, I know what you're saying, but, like, if you're going to plunk guys from, pluck guys, I should say, from organizations.

Plunk them, too.

Right.

It doesn't hurt if they're coming from, like, Tampa, L.A., Houston, right?

So, that's what's wrong with this.

Basically, yeah.

I just, I don't love having everybody from the same org.

Like, a little congruence of thought would be great.

And I feel like we're creating an Astros brainchild here that, I don't know, maybe I've seen this song and dance too many times.

I'm with the Pirates where they are just behind the eight ball and doing things like the Astros.

Are they a good baseball team anymore?

Well, I'll say what's funny is that could be a real concern, too.

They were forward-thinking.

They were.

They were.

They're not now, per se, but this could just be, this was ahead of the curve back in 2020, and now they're picking up where, we're at today.

So, they're going to get behind, like you're mentioning here.

They're going to, they're going to pirate themselves the way the Pirates did back in the 2015, 16, 17.

Maybe, like, if they, if it was the Brewers assistant pitching coordinator, I might be a little more excited.

Again, I'm not saying I'm not excited.

Like, I legitimately could have zero more feelings about this or less.

Well, in a couple hours, you might have your wish on one becoming available.

Yeah, well, they already hired them up.

Yeah.

Let's do this.

Let's go ahead.

I want to talk a little about the World Series, too.

we want to talk about that and, again, getting into what the title is about because the World Series is up.

The Brewers are there.

Matt Arnold and Ben Sharon can only be tied to the hip, I feel like, especially when you're Pirates fans.

So let's talk to see if this really was the right call because also Neil, our very own Neil, did write an article this week, too, about revisiting that.

So let's do that.

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By the way, I can't talk tonight.

I don't know if you noticed, but that might just not be the mic.

Like, I just, my voice, I can't go high.

I don't know what it is.

This is as strong as it's going to get.

No Freddie.

No Freddie Mercury tonight.

Mm-mm.

No, yeah, I don't mean, I don't mean, like, hypo, like, it's just not strong either.

I just, I've had, like, no water.

I finally just ate something.

I struck down a Jersey Mike sub.

It makes you feel better.

I haven't eaten all day.

It doesn't.

I'm selfish like that.

I don't care about you.

That's my problems I care about.

Yeah, I'll just screw myself.

But referring to Neil's article and our next topic here about, essentially, if we rewind the tape seven years, there was another name in the mix of future Pirates GM.

And the name was Matt Arnold, who just so happens to be the GM of the team about to clinch the World Series.

Would he have taken it?

I don't know.

I don't think any of us can answer that.

Was he offered that?

Or offered the job?

Well, from the sounds of Korn Ferry, they recommended Ben Cherington, and therefore the Pirates got Ben Cherington.

And with that being said, Neil's, I think, first topic in his article is why bad teams stay bad.

And I've referred to this team as the Cleveland Browns of the Major League Baseball for a couple months now, because that's what they are.

They hire bad.

They sign bad.

They trade bad.

They're bad.

And then you throw in the money part of it.

But all things considered, we can see the World Series.

We've talked about it enough and how the Pirates could potentially be there.

But they don't.

Because they just keep missing the boat on every one of these.

And that it's just not a good organization.

Organizationally, they are bad.

It's a bad program.

Yeah.

Well, let's just take this back to what we were talking about five minutes ago.

It's not that you're often hearing the Pirates are getting plucked or plunked for their coaches.

It's not either.

Right.

Like, Oscar Marin ends up as a Cincinnati bullpen coach because he was fired.

Now, again, you could argue why he was fired, of course.

But, not too many guys are being poached.

The guy who might have been a good GM if they went a different route, who ended up as an assistant GM in Washington.

That happened.

He was poached.

They didn't retain him.

Justin Horwitz.

That was, in my sense, a brilliant mind.

Someone who added value to this organization.

We saw the drafts that, were in place that he was in charge of.

Do you get better than that?

Like, can you get better than those drafts that he was in charge of?

Three years in a row.

He was in charge of them.

He's gone.

But, like, outside of Justin Horwitz, is there really that many that you can, credit and say, like, oh, yeah.

Like, Pittsburgh, that's the org we are searching for.

We want to find them in the way that we're talking about Houston, right?

And Tampa and L.A.

Like, if you're going to go out there and try to poach guys that are, in the pitching development, pitching organization in some sense, you want to go there.

Houston had, like you mentioned, three guys who went to the Pirates.

They all came from Houston.

You don't see that in this org.

No.

You know what you see?

A bunch of names that were here when Ben Shering or when Neil Huntington was here.

There's still a handful of names in this front office that has been here for over a decade.

That's a joke.

They haven't won a freaking thing in 10 years, more than 10 years.

And these guys are still employed.

Like, Kevin Graves might be a great guy, great assistant GM.

I don't care.

You've been a part of this for this long.

Get out.

Joe Delacari.

I don't care.

Scouting.

Get out.

Scouting sucks.

Why are you still here?

Why are you still employed?

Why?

Yeah.

And, like, that's, individually, I look at it as a broader thing.

And I want to add this here, too, because this is also true.

And we're going to bring this up, but as Hamilton, the pay porter, says, Arnold is good and probably better than Sherry.

Arnold is good and probably better than Sherry.

But he also has at least $40 million more to work with.

And in two ways, this starts at the top.

Yes, it starts at the top of Bob Nutting because, of course, how cheap he is.

Right?

You have to hit on, like, record numbers to be good.

Like, you have to be almost perfect in a lot of scenarios in this organization to overcome what's given to you.

But it's also just, like, it's not a good order because it starts at the top as, like, that doesn't matter.

Winning, success, like, that is not top priority here.

That's not the culture.

It's trickle down.

So, like you're saying, like, people are still here.

It's just, we talk urgency for certain matters and stuff, but, like, there's no urgency of we need to win.

It's, well, when it matches up, men aligns fairly well and the money works out and this.

It's not like we need to win.

Right?

Like, again, you think you hire Ben Cherington.

Let's go back to 2019 as Milwaukee's in the World Series now.

Ben comes in, and we know it wasn't an easy task.

There was still talent.

I think there was more talent than people were giving credit for.

There was still talent in this organization when he took over.

you could make the argument that you could have added on what was already here and tried again.

I'm perfectly okay with the GM wanting to come in and saying, I'm going to build a new.

Like, I'm not going to take this over, run this thing back, it stinks, and then just delay the rebuild and do it again next year.

Like, I'm okay with him making the decision.

Let's just tear this thing down and let's move forward.

But there was talent there.

Don't dismiss that.

There was talent there to get back prospects.

It didn't happen.

What I'm going back to is the fact that, like, there wasn't urgency.

It wasn't like, okay, listen, we're hiring you.

I know it's a bit of work.

What's the timeline?

And it's like three to five years.

Cool.

Because that's what I want.

Like, we want success, but, like, we need to be good.

We need to turn this thing around.

it's been 2015 is the last time we're in the playoffs.

Right?

It's now 2019.

We need to move forward.

We need to, build this thing.

It's just, we'll take it one year at a time.

One year at a time.

Again, Ben had an interview in 2021, I think it was, November 21, when he was like, Pirates fans, be quicker than you think.

That was 21.

It's now going to be 2027, and we still haven't seen the Pirates in the playoffs.

So, like, we talk about urgency in all these matters, but, like, where's the urgency of, like, we need to win?

We're going to be top-notch?

Success.

Success.

Success.

They told us this was a year.

We were blatantly told this was the year.

And, basically, our jobs are on the line here.

Turns out that was a lie.

And, you know what, DiNardo, we both work sales here.

If I'm being told, like, this is your cap, I'm fighting back on that, dude.

I'm fighting back.

Like, I need more.

I don't want a GM that's just, okay, well, he's only giving me $60 million this year.

I've got to rebuild with that, so let's do that.

And next year, I get $80.

And then next year, I get $100.

And he might be, and behind the scenes, I don't know this.

But he ain't succeeding with it.

But you know what, Tyler?

Let's have a little fun with this.

Because here's the angle I want to go at with that.

Because you just said, like, okay, fine.

Like, we're both in this situation with his mindset.

Great.

You be Ben.

I'm Bob.

I'm cheap, Bob.

I'm giving you this shitty payroll.

Right?

Come at me.

Tell me you need more money.

Give me more money.

Why?

You see the numbers here?

This is, there's no fans.

I'm not getting any money to give you.

You will not win, and you will not make money if you don't give me more here.

And let's, like, I'm not great at role-playing, and I don't enjoy role-playing in general.

That's fine.

I respect your opinion, and there's some truth to that, but Tyler, Ben, what are you doing to deserve more money?

Did you see these trades you made that offseason and that deadline?

Like, you're the one who brought in Brian De La Cruz, am I mistaken?

You're the one who brought in IKF, am I mistaken?

Like, why do you deserve more of my money?

How about this?

You want more money?

Go out there and earn it next year.

Show me you're going to do something 2025, and then you know what?

2026, I'll give you more money.

I'll do it.

We'll write it.

Whatever you need.

Bob, can you show me?

You need to earn it for me.

Show me.

Give me a reason to have faith in you.

And you know what?

Here's the thing.

Your job's on the line.

You proved me, and let's make a deal.

You proved to me, because winning matters.

You proved to me that you deserve this money to invest into our team, to build a team, to build a championship contending team.

Go out there this year.

Show me those improvements.

And in 2026, I got you.

What number do you want?

Let's write it down right now.

You stay.

You get the money.

You fail.

You're fired.

I'll find someone who deserves my money.

Bob, when's the last time you've had a winning team?

The last GM did.

Three years in a row into the playoffs.

Quicker than you did.

How long ago was that?

Quicker than you did.

How long ago was that?

A decade ago.

Basically, since you've been here.

I'm done.

Hire someone else.

Fine.

This is what's called a win-win.

But, like, that's what I'm getting at.

That's the desire.

That's what I'm getting at.

If I'm on the side of it, I'm done.

We need to win.

We need to win.

That's two guys wanting to win.

Instead of, this is what you got.

Okay.

And that is what it feels like.

It's just two guys or a group of guys.

You can include Travis Williams in it, the front office, all the whole game.

My job's safe.

There's no actual urgency to really make sure I'm winning.

Just make sure I'm doing enough.

We're getting close.

So maybe next year and then, yeah, it might be a lockout, but if there is a lockout, we might have a better shot.

Yeah.

And you don't want to fire me right before a lockout, do you?

You already hired me right before COVID.

I can't do, you want me to do both these things?

Right.

I need a raise.

So yeah, it absolutely starts at top.

Like it, this is a Bob netting issue, but always has been.

It always will be.

But just because of the Bob issue, doesn't mean no one else can have accountability in here as well.

And like, yeah, was this the right hire?

I don't know, man.

Like, again, I don't know.

Arnold was going to come in and take this job, but he was certainly a possibility.

He certainly had his name in the hat.

He was looking to get a GM role.

Yeah.

And Corn Fairy decided Ben Cherington was the case for Bob Nutting because Bob hired them to do the work for him.

And here we are.

And yeah, like the brewers have more money.

I get that.

They shouldn't have this much more.

And they're going to have money.

Like, this is the annoying part of tonight.

They're going to have, especially if there's no salary cap, the brewers are going to have money to spend next year.

Like, a lot more money.

They're probably locking up people.

They're probably going to, go off there.

Like, this is what happens when you win.

You can have more advantages.

But anyways, yeah.

that's what we, that.

A little more advantage he had.

But like, just look what he's done with that team, that organization.

Like, they have the same situation where they can't keep guys.

They had to trade off Corbin Burns.

They had to trade off Freddie Peralta.

Like, they have to work in the same constraints.

But the Pirates, yeah, they do a better job.

Like, they did lock up, players and such.

They do things in that realm better than the Pirates or more often than the Pirates.

But like, they still have to operate in this small-minded market and system.

And how many years have we talked about, Tyler?

Like, I don't think the brewers are going to rebuild.

Like, I don't think they're in that stage.

But this has got to be the ritual season, right?

And they trade Corbin Burns.

And no hiccup.

They trade Freddie Peralta.

No hiccup.

They have pitchers go down.

Like, just.

What?

What?

These are all the reasons the Pirates have these excuses and why they can't be good.

You hear Bob not even talk about it, right?

He, like, even says that they can't be good every single year.

And it's because of this stuff.

But the brewers are.

Right.

And then, like, and I know, yes, they definitely have more money to work with.

Like, Matt Arnold is working with $40 million a year more.

That is a completely fair argument.

You could also make that argument because they have more money generated as far as revenue.

Because they're good.

That's what I'm getting at is that they built to that point.

My bad.

They made themselves in that organization good enough.

That they could continue to just climb on the payroll.

Like, they haven't had to take that giant step back.

Or.

We can argue whether the Pirates should have taken a step back in 2019.

I think we both agree they shouldn't have.

But they did that.

No, I agree they should have.

I don't think they should have.

I'm perfectly okay with that.

Regardless.

I think we at least can agree that they should have been building that payroll off that much quicker.

Like, they should have been at $100 million three years ago.

But, again, they should have been there because they should have had a more competent team put together.

That's what.

Trade Staley Marte for two guys that barely make the majors.

You don't trade Josh Bell for nothing.

You don't trade Joe Musgrove.

They did get a closer.

Indy still.

We have no idea what you're coming out of that.

Like, every trade that they made that early part, Ben Jammington.

Like, every single trade he made was just almost an absolute failure.

not even all those.

Every single one of them was an absolute failure.

Like, there was not one even slight hit.

And then we look at, like, we've done three offseason shows.

This year, at least, about bringing Brandon Lowe back.

The Rays traded him last offseason.

They are playing tonight in the World Series.

That's the difference.

They've got guys that can replace that.

The Pirates have to have him.

We're talking so much about Brandon Lowe for good reason.

But they also traded Jake Mangum, who, I don't like Jake Mangum as a superstar, but certainly a guy that helps stabilize the team.

And are we not talking about maybe one of the better closers in baseball, in Mason-Longomer?

Yeah.

Those guys were all in their system last year.

They seem to be doing okay.

We good.

Oh, and they have the Yankees and the Red Sox and the Orioles in their system and the Blue Jays.

I'm sorry, in their division.

The team that was in the World Series last year, in their division, in the Yankees, in their Red Sox, in the Orioles.

And here's little old Tampa Bay with their $3.99 payroll, $3.99.

And they're able to do it.

they didn't have a stadium last year.

Yeah.

And then, like, you look at the Brewers.

They're playing the back of a Burger King.

And you can't even make the argument these teams haven't had things, like, go wrong for them.

Like, the Rays might be winning this World Series if they didn't have a shortstop with major Felipe Vasquez issues.

They might be winning this damn thing.

Like, both these teams have had issues.

It's not like the Pirates are the only team in the world that have problems.

Everybody deals with shit.

The Pirates just can't work their way out of it.

Because they rely on everything going right every single year.

It has to go right.

In all reality, everything has gone right for the Brewers this year.

Like, it's been a perfect season.

Don't get me wrong.

I don't think there's a team in the world beating them.

And now, by everything going right, like, their entire lineup is good.

And they shouldn't be.

What I want to say, too, is, like, by it going right is, they've had their adversities, too.

like, look at the pitching staff.

Like, Clint Preacher's out for the year.

Like, their pitching staff was hit hard this year.

Everything going perfect is the fact that they were able to still put in place guys and develop players that are there to ably, capable, and handle that situation this season

to get them to that point where Freddy Peralta's traded.

these other starters are done, basically, for the year or most of the year.

And we're going to plug these guys in, and we're able to develop them and keep this thing going and keep turning, product, and we're good.

We're good.

It's just a well-oiled machine.

Top to the bottom.

With that being said, I don't want to hear a damn word about, oh, well, they would have made it if the Pirates would have made it if Paul Skenes would have been good.

They would have made it if the bullpen would have been good.

I don't want to hear any of that shit.

That's on your GM.

That's on Ben Cherington.

He didn't do enough again.

Things happen in baseball.

Things happen.

It happens to everybody.

Konnor Griffin misses games.

Yeah, it happens.

Oneil Cruz misses games.

Yeah, it happens.

You know what you do?

You figure it out if you're a good enough baseball team in a good enough front office.

They are not.

They should have been fired years ago.

I still contend they need to be fired right now.

This is stupid.

They should not be brought back.

I can't believe we are talking about this in 2026, bringing these absolute morons back.

We hit the cap this year.

83 wins.

That's as good as you're getting out of Ben Cherington.

He's not good enough at this.

He's shown it time and time again.

I'm tired of doing this.

I'm tired.

Yeah, well, my thing too is I'll push back here and understand why I'm pushing back.

83 might not be the cap.

They could be better next year.

My biggest problem is 2027 was the year that you're finally going to be good.

Bryan Reynolds will be 32 years old.

Oneil Cruz has one more year left.

Paul Skenes's now.

Maybe one more.

If they don't play baseball next year, he's got one year left as a pirate.

You're already in, we got a flip mode.

You finally got to where you wanted and needed to be and you're already entertaining.

All right.

Well, now we've already have to flip over the roster.

We have to do what I did back in 2019, which didn't turn out to be so fruitful.

So I'm going to be in charge of that once again.

That's where we're at.

Like, we are very close to them having the trip.

Like, I don't want to hear any more about a young core here.

There is no young core here.

There is, but there isn't.

That was a little extreme.

Don't get me wrong.

There is not as large of a young core as people think.

That's the way it's not as young as you would think for a team coming out of a rebuild, hitting the stride.

No, but Paul Skenes's is running out of time here.

Oneil Cruz running out of time here.

Bryan Reynolds running out of time here.

And then what?

The next wave of guys that I don't know if they're any good.

To be honest, based on the minor leagues right now, I don't think the minor league roster is very good.

I think the prospects stink, but that's another topic for another day.

Yeah, it's.

They're in a very weird spot right now.

They're very top heavy, I think.

They certainly have the ability to be good next year.

They do.

I don't deny that.

They do have the ability to be good.

And Ben does deserve from that credit.

But, again, my biggest point to all this is it took him eight years to get there.

Yeah.

That doesn't happen.

That shouldn't happen.

and again, because it did take that long, you're already entering the fact of you're already having to turn over this roster.

Is that the guy that you are banking everything on to sustain the success while doing that?

Because the money's not going to be there.

Next year's, oh, no, Cruz's last year is a pirate.

Very likely.

This is it.

This is the last time you're going to see onel Cruz.

Next year, for however many games it's going to end up being, is the last time you'll see onel Cruz in a pirate's uniform.

He's gone.

And he's gone.

Is Ben going to be able to capitalize that for whatever you need and be able to replace that?

And then the following year, it's probably the same for Paul Skenes and Braxton Ashcraft.

Or not Ashcraft, Jared Jones.

Right.

They're gone.

Yeah, I know Seth's there.

But do you trust him trading those guys?

Like, I just don't.

They're in that weird place.

This isn't like, okay, you got the window now, like in 13.

And it's like, you have this stable of core.

The core is going out the window during this window.

Right?

The window is closing.

You didn't trade Cruz in 2015.

You didn't trade Marte in 2014.

Like, that's what's happening here.

If this window starts next year, like, that's what's happening.

It's like, they're all there for 13, but then in 14, you had to trade Marte.

And then in 15, you had to trade Cutch and Neil Walker.

Wow, that was 17.

Well, Walker went in 16.

No, that's what I'm saying is that's what this core is.

That's a window.

Like, if you're in the playoffs next year, it's like saying if 13 was the Pirates' first year in that regime, and next year is the first year in this regime, as far as playoffs, it would be like, yes, you're trading Cutch.

And Gerrit Cole's coming, too, which is, yeah.

You see what I'm getting at?

Like, they didn't have to trade off their core people in that window.

It was after the window.

Ben's going to have to have this core being traded away while they're trying to maintain this in this window.

That happens.

That's tough.

Do you know who's doing it?

The team has just scored a run.

The guy we're talking about is in the World Series right now.

The team has just scored a run?

Yeah, like, we're talking about a window that honestly has not even opened yet, and it's about to close.

Like, they're running out of time, and this is why, going back to two years ago, this is why I'm screaming in the microphone that you have to go now because you don't know how long this young pitching staff will stay together.

Look at the Mets with Matt Harvey, Noah Syndergaard, Jacob DeGrom.

How long did that hang around?

Not very long.

Look at the Pirates at this point.

What do they have?

Like, they still have Skenes, Ashcraft, Jones, Bubba.

They're there.

Are they what we thought they were coming in the next year?

Like, can you put them in marker that this is what we're getting out of these guys?

From what we've seen, I don't think you can.

And then God only knows what happens injury-wise.

They're in a very weird spot.