Could MLB Force the Pirates to Spend $180 Million?

Yo, welcome to NS9 Live, I'm your host Anthony DiNardo with me, we got Jim, we got Ty, we got a special guest tonight, we got the Pittsburgh Pirates Insider, Jason Mackey.

What's up Mackie?

What's up guys, great to see you, great to be on, thank you for having me.

Absolutely, you've been busy down, hey, in my state, you've been busy down in Florida, huh?

Yes sir, yes sir.

How was that treating you?

Man, awesome.

we'll talk about the camp, but dude, it's been a while since I've been down there this time of year, and I forgot how great it was.

The weather's still fantastic, the beach is totally accessible, and it's without all the, like, spring break, craziness.

It almost felt weird to be down there with less of a crowd, but we hit up Tide Tables, Island Time, Oak and Stone, and River House.

We were there for four days, so pretty proud of our list, not bad, we did all right.

Good spots there, yeah.

Yeah.

It's a good time.

I'm jealous, I love Bradenton, and I usually try to go down, like, one other time for the year or two, after spring training, and didn't get to make it down again this year, so.

But yeah, this time of year would be a great time to go.

Like, it's not, it's probably not too hot, but it's not too cold.

It's perfect.

It's exactly perfect.

Yeah.

And as you can see, that's what it's like up here.

I just had to run around my house looking for my AirPods, so I have a hoodie on, it's pouring outside, it's about 50 degrees, it sucks.

And it's been six more weeks, too.

Yeah, it gets dark so early.

73 right now for me.

DiNardo, nobody cares about you.

Yeah, shut up, DiNardo.

True.

honestly, as a matter of fact, like, yeah, I'll see you guys later.

Bye.

So, you were in Florida, right?

You went down to Bradenton, you were there for what, a week?

Four days.

Four days.

Four days.

Forge High Performance Camp.

Yeah, at Pirate City.

Forge High Performance Camp.

So, let's talk about that a little bit.

You wrote a bunch of articles.

If you haven't read them, go to pirates.com.

They're all there.

But, you did a lot of, like, features on players, so a lot of good stuff there.

But really just, like, the camp itself, I'm interested in this.

This was the first time the Pirates ever did something like this, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, correct.

So, normally in fall, they have something instructional league.

call it instructs, whatever.

I think they've called it, like, a bridge league before.

Basically, get all the young guys in one place.

And in the past, they've done a whole bunch of, like, on field, very heavy with, infield, learning baseball, in the cage, mechanics of swing, whatever.

They've gone away from that this year.

They're still doing some of that stuff.

It's about a month camp.

And so, like, the second half of it, they're doing more on-field stuff.

We were down there for a lot of the off-field routine, whatever you want to call it.

Talking to Michael Chernow about that, Pirates Farm Director of Coaching and Player Development, officially.

But I asked them, like, why are you guys doing it this way?

And they basically want to equip these kids with life skills throughout the season, stuff they're going to need, take a step back from actually getting on the field as much.

I think to prove that this stuff works.

show them, like, don't do it.

Let's learn these habits.

Get back on the field.

Try to put them into practice.

But I'm talking about, like, visualization.

There's a very heavy mental skills component, even some yoga stuff in the afternoon.

They've done, like, breathing techniques.

There's obviously a lot of, like, physical stuff, too, a lot of lifting, running, conditioning, recovery, that stuff's being emphasized.

And, too, it's just a lot of, like, get to know you, get everybody under one roof.

This is going to, if you haven't met a guy because you're at low A, he's at high A, whatever, bring everybody closer together.

So they've emphasized that stuff a lot.

They're getting into more of the baseball stuff now.

But a pretty star-studded cast, man.

Seth Hernandez wasn't there, but spent a lot of time with Murf Gray, Edward Florentino, the De Los Santos brothers.

I wrote that one yesterday.

Tony Blanco was there.

Reynold Navarro.

I'm, of course, leaving guys out.

But Chris Rembrandt, like, a very good cast of Pirates prospects.

Was this something that, like, what was the idea behind this?

Like, I know you said, like, so you talked to Michael Chernow.

He was saying that, like, they want to see if this stuff works.

Like, is this something that other organizations are doing?

Is this something that they picked up from somewhere?

Like, what was the brainchild of this?

Yeah, not to my knowledge, Jim.

I think other teams are more emphasizing on-field stuff.

my guess would be, feeling that these guys could use a little help.

I know, like, a quote from Navarro stands out.

He said, I've found my – and obviously, he, very good four-seam fastball, left-handed pitcher, young guy, threw the ball by people, but also didn't throw many strikes.

And he was talking to me about, I've found myself in these moments where I know I've needed to reset, but I haven't been able to.

I think part of it's that, teaching these guys how to mentally handle what they're going through.

And maybe they felt like, that just wasn't addressed firmly enough.

I think if you look around the game, obviously, you're seeing, a lot more attention paid to mental skills stuff.

I know at the major league level, the Pirates are taking that very seriously.

So it's, just bringing up prospects with that idea and equipping them with the skills they need to succeed.

I think, I think it's something you do when you're comfortable with the physical development that's happening.

Obviously, that happens in spring and a lot of other times throughout the year, the course of the season, whatever.

But, it's taken stock of what has happened and saying we can fill in some cracks here.

We can help guys, physically talented guys, help them navigate struggles.

another conversation with Edward Florentino jumps out.

That's something I wrote today where he talked about, his he didn't love his mentality where he's focused too much on results, wasn't able to get himself out.

He actually didn't love his season, which is crazy to hear.

He had 27 homers and 875 OPS.

And he was like, felt like there was a lot more.

But I think it's just, helping young guys navigate that stuff that is pros.

We see that all the time, but they're, still learning that process.

And then do you correct?

Go ahead.

No.

Go to that.

No, well, correct me if I'm wrong, just based on what reading some of your stuff here.

And you mentioned the mental part of it and then how they're transitioning into the mechanical part.

But does it seem like they're really focusing on just becoming, I guess, better athletes as well?

And is that something they've identified throughout this process as well?

Maybe.

Yeah, I don't want to correct you, but like, I didn't see an, I think they're always focused to a degree on becoming better athletes, right?

Like they're always, every organization is paying attention to strength and conditioning and recovering and nutrition and all that stuff.

So, it's not like they're not doing it, but I think it's more, the overall body of work, what it is required of players to function in the major leagues, all that goes into a routine.

And obviously, like, being an athlete, conditioning, all that stuff is a big part of that.

But I wouldn't say that like one aspect was emphasized more than another.

And so like, what I want to ask here too, is this, do you see this more as like, and I understand why I'm saying this, like a retreat, we're going to do this stuff.

And then when you guys leave, that's it.

Or is this something they're trying to instill and do more of throughout all the entire system?

This maybe kicks it off.

Yeah, I don't, I don't think they view this as a retreat, Donato.

I think like, they don't want it to be a one-off.

They've really, like, whether it's Andy Bass or Ryan Jackson or Mike Gonzalez or, a bunch of other people associated with like the mental skills component.

that's something they do with their major league guys a ton.

One example, like, watching these guys, one of the activities they did in Bradenton was grounding, take your shoes off, walk around in the field, think certain things.

And I understand, like, people are going to think this stuff's goofy, but like, I've watched Skenes do it since he got here.

Spencer Horwitz did it a lot.

Austin Hedges did it a lot.

so it's stuff like that, and I think guys learn over time what works for them.

And I think if you introduce this stuff, like, unmasked to them at a younger age, they can say, like, eh, I'm not really, I'm not getting anything out of this, but they're introduced to it.

And they're introduced to a lot of stuff.

And you hope that, two or three things stick or whatever.

And, opens their eyes to something, and I, like, let's be honest.

A lot of these guys coming from places like the Dominican Republic or Venezuela or whatever, like, they're not exposed to a lot of this stuff.

It's just not how players are developed.

I think that's probably a separate conversation of, like, people looking at them and judging them and probably needing to extend a little bit more grace because these guys aren't developed the same way as American prospects are.

But, you can look at any college program in the country.

They're going to be emphasizing stuff like this.

and so I think it's the Pirates trying to establish a uniform way of doing things.

These are skills that will help these guys.

And, some of them, they're younger.

I think of the way I was when I was 19, 20, 21 years old.

Like, I didn't have it all figured out.

You guys didn't have it all figured out.

Like, we all could have used, somebody in our ear saying, like, these are good habits.

This is what this player does.

This is what they do at the major league level.

This is the way this works.

providing a template for these guys to work off of.

So then I do have a follow-up on that then.

Oh, I was going to say.

So just because I see this question coming up.

So it's almost like let's just ask it and talk about it right now.

Just because it has such a negative connotation to it.

But, like, I understood the idea of it.

And I feel like this is similar in that sense.

It's something outside the box of something.

The Hokage era, right?

What do you think?

Like, what's the comparisons and the contrasts of, like, what they're doing with this in terms of that?

and why do you like this maybe, what they are doing?

Well, I wasn't around for the Hokage era.

So I can't say exactly what was happening.

Obviously, I read a lot of stories.

And, same as you guys know, it's just, like, a basic understanding of being around the Pirates, right?

Like, I don't think there was much consideration given to, like, what actually helps these guys.

Like, it was like a shock to your system.

We're going to teach you how to do this.

We're going to force you to do it.

Whatever.

a lot of those guys in the Hokage era, I would imagine they weren't really carrying a lot of those habits with them to the major leagues.

What I like about this more is stuff the guys are doing now with, like, the Forge high-performance camp.

it's stuff major leaguers are doing.

It's stuff people in the organization are doing.

I also don't want to, like, overcook this with you guys.

They're not, like, reinventing the wheel here.

a lot of it was, like, two hours every morning, it was, a very intense group weightlifting session.

And they split off into teams.

And so they would compete against one another in various lifting exercises or whatever.

So, they're also trying to spur competition amongst themselves.

it's more of a get to know you, work together, work against you, compete.

Let's keep score.

Let's see what we can, any organization in baseball is going to want to foster an environment where that stuff is rewarded and punished.

I don't know if Hoka Hay is teaching those same things or was teaching those same things.

you're teaching discipline, certainly.

And from the Hoka Hay standpoint, like, I didn't have any problem with that part of it.

but I think it was maybe a little bit more cookie cutter.

somebody is, has this idea.

I don't know.

Has this idea of the way things should work, but it's not really applicable to baseball today.

To me, what I saw is very much applicable to baseball today.

Okay.

No, I like that perspective.

Shifting gears, because I want to talk about, like, you wrote about a bunch of players, like specific players while you were down there.

I want to talk about Derek Hurriel, the Pirates first round pick this year.

We didn't get a chance to see him this year at all.

But it was a similar approach that they took with Konnor Griffin two years ago.

Similar approach I took with Murf Gray last year.

What did you learn?

And, this was really your first impression, I guess, of being around him.

what were your impressions of him and what he's been working on?

And, is he – everything I've heard about the guy is that he's just a great kid.

He's a great kid, like this person you want in your organization.

But what were you just your first impressions of being around Curiel?

Yeah, let me go two tracks with that.

And one is I'll talk about the off-field stuff, but also, like, at least newsier stuff.

why they did what they did was to add to his body.

He was a little undersized.

He's gaining a whole bunch of weight.

I wrote about this.

He's working with the nutrition staff, his girlfriend, his mom, in terms of, like, what he's eating, how frequently he's eating it, how he's cooking.

Like, habits like that they're just actively trying to put weight on the kid.

And he's probably going to end up being around 215, maybe 220, something like that by the time the season rolls around.

He was, like, 180.

That's wild.

And it's good weight.

Like, I was around him every single day.

So it's good weight.

It's very active stuff in the weight room, whatever.

And then the personal side, my first answer, like, there's legit Konnor Griffin vibes with this kid, just, like, personality-wise.

And one anecdote from the down there, you're in Pirate City, you walk in, like, the main reception area.

They had us working in, like, a conference room next to it.

And Curiel had to, like, they all, like, these autograph obligations and stuff.

It's normal.

just a bunch of stuff they have to sign.

And so Curiel comes in.

He's, like, hey, you mind if I, like, sit with you guys and sign with this stuff?

And so I'm, like, I'm writing.

A few of us are working.

And he's just, like, hanging out.

Total normal dude.

It's just, like, his personality is so humble, regular guy-ness.

it's just like Connor.

we'll see if he can play baseball the same way.

If he can, that's going to be awesome for the Pirates.

But, like, he's wired very similarly to Konnor Griffin.

And I loved seeing that up close, man.

He's a really easy kid to talk to.

He's very accessible, very smart, very mature.

I am curious if the baseball cooperates because, he's, what, 21, two years at LSU?

He's pretty advanced mentally.

If the physical stuff keeps up, like, I would see no reason to not allow that, like, let this kid show me how much he can take.

And if he can move fast, let him move fast.

he shouldn't, other than the physical stuff and having to add some weight, he shouldn't require a lot.

And then I think another guy that you talked about a good bit was Murf Gray.

Can you just touch a little bit on him?

And I guess it almost seems like he's taking, am I wrong in saying he's taking a leadership role down there a little bit?

Ty, you're exactly right, man.

That's a good way of putting it.

he's got a nice balance of, like, knowing that he's good but not acting like it.

Like, he knows, I think what he can become.

And I like his confidence.

I like the way he carries himself.

Like, he carries himself like a guy who knows he's going to be something and has the ability and put up numbers, but not in a selfish, I'm a jerk way.

Like, he's got a really cool personality.

We were asking him about his nickname.

there's a couple stories out there about it.

But, just like where it came from, why he goes by Murph.

And just, there's no filter.

I really like that about him.

He's a way bigger dude than I thought.

Like, being next to him and talking to him a lot.

Obviously, I didn't see him, swing, but I saw him lift and talk to him, five, six times down there.

I love just getting to know him a little bit because the personality is so genuine.

And, we know he can play.

I just, he puts up numbers again.

Maybe start him at Altoona, get him to Indy.

I don't think it's crazy at all to think that he is in a place mentally to handle the big leagues in 2027.

Hopefully, there's big leagues in 2027, but absolutely functioning as a leader.

He was impressive makeup-wise.

I want to know a little about Tony Blanco.

Because, a year ago, he was like, him and Esmerlyn both were the stories of the AFL.

Clearly, he because of the power and everything.

But we knew, there's certainly some flaws in his game.

I think he tightened up some of that.

One of the biggest things, of course, was the injuries.

And, he was basically healthy all year long.

what are you seeing from Tony down there?

Is this something where you think, like, he could actually have, a major league career in some aspect?

Some aspect or just, some type of prospect that has some cool stuff?

on top of that, how's the lower body looking?

Is he thickening up a little bit?

Yeah, he's still, he's having no problem thickening up.

That's not an issue with Blanco.

He's 290.

I asked him at the end of our interview.

I said, give me an accurate height and weight for you.

He said, 6'7", 290.

It's an offensive tackle.

And he looks like it.

That's Washington numbers, yeah.

Yeah, it's Washington numbers.

But, okay, so with Blanco, like, I had a funny conversation with Chernow about this.

the rules for him are, like, so simple.

Stay on the dang field.

That's been their emphasis with him.

And I think he's probably very high on the list of people that will benefit from something like this.

Like, emphasizing to him how much, like, I know it seems very silly to, like, focus on, rolling out your hamstrings every day.

And these little, like, little silly routine things that, in the micro might seem pointless to some of these guys.

But, you learn, hey, man, to, like, sustain over 162, like, you've got to do this.

And Blanco hasn't been able to do that.

Like, he just hasn't played games.

And he's had injuries that creep up on him.

And so I think his habits are in a good place.

He had a really good year.

I do get the sense from talking to him.

Like, he's very well aware of how darn good he can be.

It's just a matter of staying on the field and proving it.

Like, he has just absurd skills.

again, we didn't get to see him a lot down there.

But, like, I was standing next to Tony Blanco in the weight room, which is quite impressive.

It looks like an offensive tackle lifting.

So if he can figure out a way to stay healthy, good God.

I don't see why he couldn't handle things.

He has all the power in the world you could possibly want.

he got pitched to a little bit this past season at various times.

But he also figured it out.

Another thing Chernow told me, like, the more they saw him, like, actually stay healthy for a sustained period of time, they saw him get into a little bit of a groove as an actual hitter.

Like, he's not a sellout for power, all or nothing.

He doesn't have to be that type.

But it's just a matter of, they're really emphasizing to him the need, dude, you've got to stay on the field.

Good stuff.

DiNardo mentioned Blanco along with Valdez.

Because there were major leaguers down there, too, when you were down there.

And as Marlene Valdez was one of them, you wrote about him.

Obviously had a really hot stretch this year, but had some times where, he struggled.

And one, is he completely healthy?

He ended the season on the IL.

So, one, is he completely healthy?

And two, do you think the Pirates view Valdez as, like, your starting outfielder going into next year?

Or is there still, like, we're not really sure yet because there was some inconsistency?

I think they want him to be a starting outfielder.

But they also really liked what Jake Mangum brought.

And I think, you're going to see, and I'll loop back to Valdez's health.

Short answer is he's healthy.

But, obviously you're going to have Cruz in there, right?

you're going to have Bryan Reynolds in there, whether they're playing defense or DH-ing or whatever.

right field, I think it's probably up to Esmeralena on how much he's able to earn.

If he hits, I think they want him to be in there and they'll rotate Mangum in as needed.

they can use him defensively if they want to use the DH spot for Cruz and Reynolds, etc.

But, if Valdez doesn't hit, if he looks like the guy he was outside of July, I don't think they're going to force that.

they have other places they can go.

I don't know if Akil Badu is going to replace those guys.

That might be presumptive on my part.

But, you're going to have other options.

So, I don't think they're going to run him out there and try to shoehorn him into the outfield.

But, I think the best outcome, given what he showed us in July, if that's real and he can show that's real, I think he's going to have the opportunity to earn a lot of playing time.

I give him credit.

He's going to winter ball.

He's going to play in the DR.

I talked to him about that and how excited he was, watched him hit.

That was like the one on-field session that I got to see.

He took some BP on the field.

But, he looked like Valdez.

He looked totally normal.

There was power the opposite way.

Looked like no ill effects from the injury.

So, just a matter of can he look the way he did mostly in July.

And, I think mature kid, mature at-bats, but didn't put the ball in play a ton outside of that month of July.

Needs to find that power.

Yeah.

Don't want to keep you too much longer here.

I got all the time in the world for you, Jim.

One final question for you.

You wrote, we haven't even mentioned about everybody you wrote about.

You wrote about, you mentioned Florentino, Sterling, the De Los Santos brothers, all them as well.

But, is there somebody who surprised you or stood out down there that you didn't even really get a chance to write about that Pirates fans just aren't talking enough about?

Chris Rembert.

Chris Rembert.

Okay.

And I'm going to write about Rembert soon.

And he is, he's not a great quote.

Sorry, Chris.

But a very nice, focused, just a baseball player, man.

Like, the stuff, the amount that he puts into it.

And I say that joke, like, not a great quote.

Like, that doesn't matter.

Just play baseball well and care about that stuff, which, like, he does.

Right.

And that's awesome.

But, like, he is, he showed me a lot of maturity.

He showed them a lot of maturity.

He's really made an impression on the Pirates with how much he wants to work, how good he can be.

His defense at second base has been a lot better than they expected.

If anything, they were a little bit surprised by some stuff that he, like, wasn't doing, wasn't taught, playing where he did at Auburn.

But there's a baseball player in there.

And given his maturity, his body build, strong kid, too, for his position.

He was another one that was a little bigger than I anticipated.

Doesn't really get a lot of shine.

And he's up there in terms of their prospects and just really liking the temperament.

And I think it has the possibility to really play once he gets into, he got into some affiliated games.

But, having a full season ahead of him, I think he's going to be able to show something.

And Sterling was impressive, too.

I'll be curious to see what he does this year.

As well.

it strikes out a ton.

really good stuff from the right side.

Great build.

He's added some to his frame, too.

He's about 2 of 5 now.

But if I had to answer it for one guy we're not talking about enough, I'd go Chris Rembert.

Good name.

I don't think I mentioned Florentino, either.

But that probably doesn't fall into that category.

I just feel weird that, like, basically a top 30 guy.

Yeah.

He's going to be good.

Well, I appreciate you hopping on here.

I always love having you on the show, Jason.

So I feel like we haven't had you on since the offseason.

Well, thank you.

It's always a pleasure, guys.

You do a great job.

We need to have you back on again before whatever is going to happen next year.

But in the meantime, I'm sure everybody knows where they can find your stuff.

But where can everybody find your stuff, Jason?

Yeah.

Pirates.com, at jmackie underscore pgh on Twitter or X.

Be on 93.7 The Fan from time to time.

But thank you guys for having me.

And check it out.

It's a pleasure.

Thank you so much.

All right, guys.

Take care.

All right.

See you.

Have a good one.

All right.

Jason Mackey.

Boom.

Yeah.

I found that interesting what they're doing down there.

Yeah.

I felt like you were super interested in the mental coaching aspect.

He was like, we don't need to dwell on this.

But no, I am.

It is different.

And again, you talk about, we're going to talk about this a lot because obviously that we're heading into.

But small market teams, like having to think differently outside the box in development.

And like, you asked him the question he brought up.

He's like, he's not sure of any team that's doing this.

And like, these are life type skills.

And that's why I did want to bring it up because there's that similar, like Hoka Hay had the same.

I think the same idea behind it.

It was just executed much differently, but like this is something that it's like that in the sense like this isn't baseball.

It's life skills.

It's learning and things that you can translate in.

I liked it.

I like hearing that they're doing that stuff down there.

It is different, but I don't look at it as like, oh, here we go again.

Pirates doing something stupid.

we'll find out if it is or not.

But like, yeah, we'll see if it works.

they just played a full season.

Like they don't need to immediately end up 140 game schedule and then get right back in the cage.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

Right.

Take a, take a time out to maybe sharpen some other skills.

We'll see if it works.

I'll say this, when it comes to the pirates player development, like.

It went through a really rough patch for a really long time.

But last year was like the first year where we saw people, consistently come up and make impacts.

Which like just we weren't used to seeing that thing, on a consistent basis.

And last year you saw the needle moving a little bit.

So hopefully they can continue that.

if every year they bring up a top prospect and then they also bring up a Valdez type who all of a sudden gets hot.

Like these are things that the Cardinals do, right?

Like the Cardinals will bring up these random people, who are maybe their number 12 prospect, these Rafael Flores Jr. type guys.

And they'll just go off for like two months.

And next thing they're solid major leaguers.

So I'm not saying that's going to happen here, but last year was a positive development when it came to that.

It was.

I'm still stuck on that physical part of this.

And it's because what we've talked about before and what you just mentioned, Jim, not having in the past, the Esmerlyn Valdez is who come up and come out of nowhere.

Like in this case, you're not sending a Tony Blanco back home and giving him a workout to do every day.

No, you're actually in the building with us.

We are telling you and we are watching you.

You are going to do what we're going to tell you to do.

And like, well, it worked for Tony Blanco.

I don't know.

It remains to be seen, but that's how you build some of these under the radar type of guys that come out of nowhere.

But again, it's like, but they're all, they're giving him the tools.

They're teaching.

They're not saying here, take this, go do it.

And then let's see what happens.

Come February months.

it's like, we're going to hear when the guys you were going to, we're going to work through this.

We're going to help develop and create you and do these things.

like Mackie talked about, just taking care of your hamstrings.

Like, let's make sound stupid and tedious.

And, but like, this is a big deal.

Like these are things you just don't know how to do that.

And now we're going to make sure that you do.

And yeah.

So it was very interesting.

That's why I also like, is it, when I use the word retreat, I want to sit in that sense.

Like, this isn't just like a one-off thing, like, Hey, let's all get together and do this.

Like a, it's like a training camp, right?

We go pay for, to go to baseball camp for a week.

Right.

You learn those things.

It's like, all right, go ahead, kids.

We'll see you later.

Or, is this something they're implementing and doing more of too?

So yeah.

Just interesting.

DiNardo was thinking of it.

Like it was the office episode where Michael takes them all to the beach for the office.

Yes.

They're taking their shoes off.

They're running across coals.

They were grounding themselves.

You see Murf Gray burns his arches of his feet.

Cause he's running on fire.

A hundred percent.

They're all wearing fat suits.

What a great episode.

Oh no.

Good stuff.

Good stuff.

Some other stuff happened though, this week.

They did, but I'll tell you what, before we get into it, let's do something here.

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I didn't update that one.

I just saw the thing says $180 million floor.

Oh, did you?

No, I updated it.

I made a whole new thing.

I've got three overlays for this show.

I was confused.

Like, wait a minute.

That's not what it was said before.

Because the big news and the main topic of today's show is that Major League Baseball submitted a new proposal to the Players Association yesterday that just some changes, right?

We've already gone over some of them where there was a cap and floor offered before.

Major League Baseball is now proposing that the cap starts in 2028, not 2027.

So it would give teams a little bit of time to get to that point.

But also wouldn't affect any transactions or anything that's going on this offseason.

The other thing, too, is that they raised the amounts a little bit, right?

The salary floor, $180.2 million.

The hard salary cap, $258.2 million.

And just to make sure that everybody is aware, when we're talking payroll, especially when it's the Pirates, we usually talk in terms of, like, real dollars spent, right?

The numbers that are being floated out here are CBT payroll numbers.

So it includes, like, player benefits, the bonus pool, things like that.

So the Pirates, as we stand right now, last year, had $107.6 million payroll, cash payroll.

But their CBT payroll was $142.6 million.

Their current payroll, as we stand, is $100.3 million for 2027.

Their projected CBT payroll right now is $125.7 million.

So essentially, the Pirates are $54, $55 million short of that floor right now.

And, yeah, that's the interesting thing to me.

Like I said, they raised that up a little bit.

I said 50-50 split between the players and the owners when it comes to revenue.

Minimum salaries going up just a little bit.

$1 million if you have at least two years of service.

$900K if you're below that.

Earlier free agency, you've got the potential to hit free agency after five years.

If you're 30 years or older, eliminate the qualifying offer.

Yeah, so like I said, there's some things in here that are interesting.

But I really just want to talk about how this affects the Pirates, right?

Because immediately off the bat, if this were to happen, they've got to be at – I think there's like a phase-in number that they promote that they said.

So for 2028, minimum of 90% of that floor.

So they'd have to be at $162 million at least in 2028.

So, yeah, what's that mean for the Buccos?

But also, remember, that 162 includes the CBT.

So it's really like a $20 million difference.

It's a – Let's see, what was the number before?

We were $45 million off currently.

Right?

If we do – CBT was one.

So 54.

So the Pirates are – They're $54.5 million short right now.

So even with the 90% threshold, they'd still need to spend probably another $40 million.

CBT, yep.

Their CBT payroll right now, right now, with their current roster, is 125.7.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

I was going to base on last year being like the 140-ish.

That's why.

So, okay.

Gotcha.

Yeah.

Last year was higher.

Mm-hmm.

Sign Brandon Lowe, extend Paul Skenes's call to me.

You can do more than that, probably.

Well, I'm just saying, if you want to get to that number, sign Brandon Lowe, extend Paul Skenes's, give him $40 million a year, pay Brandon Lowe, call today.

That's the bare minimum.

Yeah.

And you're at that number, and then go ahead and have fun with the rest of it.

Do you want to just have 37 pieces of flair, Tyler?

Just do the bare minimum, or do you want to go all out and care?

No, I think the bare minimum was eight pieces of flair.

Oh.

Maybe.

Yeah, that's right.

I'll take anything.

Yeah, I'm with Tyler right now.

Like, I think the immediate impact of the Pirates here is you can go to Paul Skenes's, and you can give him an offer.

Whatever.

That, like, really no other team can give him, right?

Because part of this is like that cornerstone player thing.

Like, the Pirates have the ability to offer Paul Skenes's more money than any other team can offer him.

So it's like, go and do that, right?

Go ahead and capitalize on you drafting, one of the best pitchers of our generation.

And then I think, like, Oneil Cruz is also, like, an Oneil Cruz extension is in play here.

Like, if you could just keep him for a few more years, wouldn't you just do that, right?

Instead of letting him walk or having to make a decision to trade him after next year?

So, like, I think.

That's what I think is the biggest one of this, to interject.

because, like, I think Oneil Cruz, like, that's out the window at this point in time.

Now.

Yeah.

I think there's a real possibility.

Paul Skenes's, I think, still, he could still say, you know what, show me if you're going to win or not first.

Like, he could still, cards are in his hands still.

But I think this really gives a possibility of an Oneil Cruz.

Yeah.

I think so, too.

And I think what's funny is, like, whenever these things come out, you see a lot of people who just don't seem to really understand, like, how this works.

If the Pirates are forced to spend $180 million, it's not, like, Bob Nutting's not going to be shaken in his boots.

He's not going to sell the team because he's got to all of a sudden spend more money.

Part of this is increased revenue sharing.

So every team would be given the money to be able to spend this money.

There is no Bob Nutting shelling out more of his money, quote unquote, his money to do this.

Like, it would mean that Major League Baseball is saying, okay, every team, whether you're Miami, Tampa Bay, the A's, the Pirates, or if you're the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, you can spend in this threshold.

And we're going to make sure you can spend in this threshold.

So I, cause I saw a lot of takes yesterday where it was like, I can't believe the owners are putting this out there.

They're basically admitting that everybody can spend $180 million and they're just pocketing all the money.

It's like, that's not what this is.

This is a whole new economic system of the sport.

Things would change drastically.

This wouldn't scare Bob Nutting wants this, like, let's be clear.

Bob Nutting wants this to happen because it means that he's going to be subsidized to get to that number.

So yeah, like this is, this is more welfare for Bob Nutting is what this is, what this is.

So I just want to make sure that if you're listening to this and you see those, it's like, those are terrible takes because they're just simply not true.

And to be clear, give him all the welfare.

If it means a pirates world series, I will give him every welfare in the world.

I'll be taking from third world countries.

I don't care.

What's up?

Go fund me.

Yep.

Don't care.

I'll give him all the money.

If it means a world series.

So I do want to go over just a, just a couple other numbers here too, because the way that they structured this, 12 teams are below that floor right now.

the pirates include, or, as one of them, eight teams are above that cap.

So just quick math here, the 12 teams that are below would have to add $636 million to their payroll.

The eight teams above would have to reduce their payroll by $528 million.

So you're still looking at a total spend of about $110 million more than what it is right now.

And obviously there's a lot of wiggle room in there, right?

Like a team could still go down from where they are.

Like this isn't saying this isn't guaranteeing the players are going to get more money.

but I thought this was, this was a better starting point from where they were before.

Like, in my opinion, I'd still like to see those two numbers be a little closer together.

I think they're still too big of a gap.

And I, and I want to see that cap be higher.

I want to see the floor be higher.

I want to see the floor be higher.

Maybe the cap's good where it's at.

I would rather them look more at like that CBT number is a little, people don't really look at that because it's almost like there's hidden money in there, right?

That's pushing teams up to that level.

I would, I would still like to see this number go up.

And I think if you're the, again, the players came out and said, no way, Jose, like, we're not, we're not doing this.

but like, I think there's a way for the players to maybe get a lot more out of this.

If the owners are steadfast in this and they're not going to move on having a cap and floor system, if you're the players just ask for more money, like just be like,

Hey, yeah, you know what?

It's not a 50 split.

It's 54, 46.

And that floor quite a bit higher, I think, I think there's some negotiation that could be in play here, but it doesn't seem like we're to that point yet.

Like the players are not negotiating with these types of proposals that are being put out by the owners at this point.

It's not happening.

Like it doesn't seem like they're even remotely close and the players are so steadfast and not doing it that I think it's just another hint that there will not be baseball

next year.

I just can't see these two sides coming together at this point.

Like they seem so far apart and things could change really quickly.

They could, but as it stands right now, it just seems so far apart.

Yeah.

I don't think either really, well, I guess the thing is too, it's so early in the stages of negotiations that the appearance, right?

The perception is no side wants to move off of their stance.

Like it doesn't matter, no matter who's throwing what out there, it's the worst thing ever.

This is laughable.

And immediately you see, yeah, we ain't doing this.

And that's just negotiations.

someone's going to move at some point somewhere.

I don't know who's going to be.

I don't know what point we're going to meet at, but that's just what we're going to see at this point in time until I think like the lockout actually happens.

And then that's when like the true negotiations are probably going to start happening.

How long it truly takes to get there.

We don't know yet either, but I do want to point this out too, because, and this isn't a high level, like makes a big difference.

But like what Jim said, I agree with also like the disparity between the cap and the floor.

I would like to get it closer.

I know NFL is a little bit weird.

NFL is like the average cap over the past three years.

You have to be at 90% of what that is, but like the cap is 301 million there regardless.

So when you look at NBA, the cap's at 164 million soft cap.

The floor is 148 NHL that caps 104 floor 76, you know?

So I think like, yeah, the disparity in here is wide.

I would like to see a little bit closer as well, but that is a good point.

It doesn't mean it's going to happen to those numbers, but technically speaking, the difference between the teams that got to get to the floor compared to teams that get down, that's more money see that would be spent.

again, like it just math's a little bit here and they're more or less saying like we would have to dish out about a hundred million more dollars in a player's salary.

So again, I'm, I have a whole idea of this cap where like, I'm pretty loose on it.

I'm open for like how the NBA does like a soft cap, but that's going to help benefit both sides.

But I don't know, man.

Like I see a lot of positives in the salary cap and we talk about the top one percenters of MLB and I feel like that's another 99%.

It's going to help benefit them.

Yeah.

it's, it, I guess we're going to find out just how serious the owners are because I think the players at this point, they're not interested in like if everything

that you're talking about is contingent on a salary cap, then it's like, we're not even right.

The discussion isn't even there to be had that's where we're at in this negotiation so far.

It's not a negotiation.

It's an Ethan, had a good way of putting this where like they're really just putting their stakes in the ground of like, here's where I'm at.

Here's where you're at.

And at some point they're going to have to start talking about where to meet.

Right.

They're not at that point yet.

Like right now they're still putting their stick in the ground saying, this is where I'm at.

This is where I'm at.

And to be fair, they don't have to move right now.

It'd be stupid to start moving right now to November 4th.

The CBA doesn't expire until December 1st at 11 59 PM.

And you have until mid February really to get this done, and not miss anything.

So there's not really a reason to meet in the middle yet.

So I think we're going to, we're going to, yeah, we're going to see this back and forth for a while now.

Yeah.

the first person that does that's the first sign of weakness.

And I'll meet you up alive now.

both going to be entrenched in like that.

Like you said, like there's, we're not even negotiating.

If that's your stance, we're not even talking.

The first person that says, okay, I'm willing to talk.

I got you.

And now you've lost all leverage.

So I'm saying like, I don't think it's going to even start until the lockout begins and something will get serious.

And again, like you said, it's probably not going to start until like February when it's a real possibility of, okay, now someone's losing money.

Who's blinking first.

I get all that, but how often do these types of labor disputes in professional sports get to this point and they don't miss games?

I don't, I feel like it's very rare.

Yeah.

I remember doing it like 13 years ago or so.

Yeah.

I feel like the, baseball went through a pretty good period of time where they just, they just kept things as is right.

And this, we're going to keep things as is, we're going to keep things as is, we're going to keep things as is.

And then in 2021, the owners, like the owners were like, no, we're not going to do this anymore.

But then they like immediately caved, they, the seasonally, the season got delayed a little bit, but it was pretty, they were basically just like, yeah, all right, we'll just keep going.

Now though.

Yeah.

I would say I'm really curious to see just how serious the owners are this time, because you have seen a lot of change with major league ownership too.

There aren't a lot of Bob nuttings out there who own teams, just like random business owners who got really wealthy and inherited a bunch of money from their parents.

And they have a net worth of, $1.4 billion and it's all tied up in the Pittsburgh pirates.

Right.

So then even if that, yeah, right.

So it's like, there aren't a lot of those guys left.

A lot of these guys who own these teams now are, they run a hedge fund and they've got billions and billions and billions of dollars.

And they're looking at their team as an investment, not necessarily as like a status, thing.

It's more like, Hey, how can I make the most possible money out of owning this team?

And one thing that you're seeing is franchise values in sports with salary caps, like where spending is dictated by a specific number.

Those franchise values are skyrocketing.

You look at NBA franchise values, look at NHL franchise values, NHL teams are worth as much as some major league teams now.

And like, who would have ever thought that would have been the hat been the case 20 years ago, you had to do miss a season, they missed a season and they got a salary cap and franchise values went through the roof.

Right.

Because yeah.

So it's like, I think, I think the owners now see that and they're like, Hey, all my buddies who own NBA teams are making all this, they're making billions and billions of dollars off their investment.

I want to do that too.

So I think you've got, you've got a little bit of a fresher group of people in here who maybe aren't as concerned with like short-term gains that the ownership groups in the past were concerned about, we've talked about it before five, six years ago where it's

like, what are the, what are owners doing selling, MLB advanced media to Disney for like a $20 million payday?

Like, why are you doing this?

Like you own this incredible technology and you just sell it off for a, for a one-time lump sum payment.

That's not even really that much.

And now I don't think you're seeing that same line of thinking.

Well, to piggyback off of that, and the whole time I was trying to think where I heard this from, and actually it was Matt Clement on the fan today.

it was a good perspective.

And I think like this hits the head on the nail where, like you said, Jim, like baseball's in a good spot.

It's a nail on the head, whatever.

There we go.

There we go.

baseball's in a really good spot.

It's in a really good spot.

Like if it was struggling, maybe the players can side for a cat, like me, that's a good, but baseball's in a good spot.

It's in a good spot.

You talk about 2021.

That was right after COVID.

Like, honestly, if you wanted a time, that was the time because there's a lot of lost income.

There's uncertainty.

Like if the owners would have dug in, then, baseball is still in a good place, but nothing in the world was in a good place then.

Right.

There's a lot of uncertainty.

People were coming out of bad situations and such.

Like, I felt like that was the time to do it if you really wanted to, but the owners couldn't because they had all their real estate investments tied into their baseball teams and this and that.

And they're in, they want to hit losses.

It wasn't so much losses.

They just didn't have enough incomes that they're normally having.

Right.

So they looked at it as like, Hey, we got, we can't miss games.

We don't revenue.

We want income.

Fine.

We'll just, let's go.

Let's run it back again.

MLU PA.

That was the time to do it.

If they really wanted to, because that was where maybe it's not, we're on such a great place.

And the players had a, they lost what?

60% of their salaries more or less in 2020, 66%.

I think it wasn't exactly 66, but regardless.

Yeah.

they're coming off that too.

They didn't have their full salaries the year before they're about to miss games.

Again, if the owners would have came together and be as united as they are right now, that's the time I think that you really could have maybe seen this, but I'm just saying all this, I don't know if there's going to be a seller cap.

Like I'm telling different, I'm operating just as things are right now.

Because I'm not confident there's gonna be a cap, but I'm not confident there won't be a cap either.

I have no idea.

And it's because the Tyler's point here, like baseball is just in a good spot.

Everyone's eating right now.

Everyone's doing well.

The sports in a good place.

It's.

I guess I'll push back on that.

I don't think it is like you're seeing, you're seeing the San Diego Padres.

They had an owner who clearly wanted to win before he died.

And he ran up a ton of debt and his family inherited the team and was like, oh shit.

Like they sold it for a 3.4, what?

3.4 billion dollars.

But with a lot of debt, like they didn't get all of that money.

They had to pay off all their debt too.

So it's like, there's that you had the New York Yankees just a few months, a couple months, a month or two ago, like have to pay off debt.

They sold like 12% of the Yankees to some private equity because they needed to pay off debt.

So like, I think you've got teams that aren't necessarily doing as good as we think they might be.

Because otherwise, why?

I think these people are selling because they're not, they're not doing that well.

And you're seeing a lot of turnover.

So I don't know.

I have, there's no way of us knowing this without actually like seeing books and stuff.

But it doesn't seem like it's as good for everybody as you made it out.

I really don't, I don't know how good it is because it seems like a lot of teams are taken on debt and loans to do stuff, which is fine.

But eventually those bills become due.

And when those bills become due, you end up selling equity in your team to pay off your loans.

And that's, it's like taking out a second mortgage on your home, right?

Yeah, I own this house back in mortgage.

Cause I had to pay off, pay off some debt.

And then I think you throw in that we're at the end of the TV bubble.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

I'm in too.

Yeah.

And that's why this, so I have no idea.

I don't, I don't know if baseball is in a good spot.

I don't, if the, if the Florida Panthers are worth as much as an N as a major league baseball team is baseball in a good spot.

God, no.

Cause that's what's happening.

Like the NHL teams cost as much as MLB teams now.

So like, are they in a good spot?

And I don't think they're in a bad spot, but they could certainly be in a much better spot.

It's not like these billionaires are bleeding money.

Like, let's not, let's not twist my words here.

I'm not saying let's, Oh, we must, we must consider the billionaires here.

That's not what I'm saying.

It's just, I don't think major league baseball is in as good of a spot as other leagues are right now.

I'd agree.

I'll push back a little bit on that, but I don't think, I don't think either of us are way far off from each other.

Yeah.

Well, at the end of the day, I just don't see it happening.

I think that's where I'm at here.

I think the players association holds enough power and the owners have shown enough that they will fold eventually, but this might be as close as it's been in a very long time since the nineties.

It absolutely is like, I have no doubt, but being close doesn't necessarily mean something will happen, but it is the closest.

you've never heard the owners really talk about.

We, I've never seen a CBA where the owners were doing this stuff for baseball.

Like never, like there was the last one.

It was like, Oh, it would be, it would be nice to have a salary cap, but then they just immediately backed off of that.

They don't seem to be immediately backing off of this.

Like it's the second Tony Clark was like, no, like, Oh, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

I didn't mean to offend you.

Yeah.

So like, I don't, I don't know guys.

I don't know.

Like Alex on offbeat this morning talked about how he's optimistic that we're going to be talking about baseball games in April.

And it's not, to be fair.

He keeps saying baseball in some form, whether it's spring training or whatever, but still that would mean like May is June ish the season begins.

And yeah, I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't know.

And then like you talk about it, not like it could be in a better spot.

They're not like, they're not in a bad spot.

Could be better.

You miss a season of baseball.

You might be in a bad spot.

I don't know.

NHL rebounded.

you look at the teams that like the league, like we have, we have precedent here, right?

Like the NHL was in a, they were, the penguins were filing for bankruptcy.

There were things like that were, that was happening.

And they missed a year of games, a full year of games.

And then there was a salary cap put in and next thing the NHL got their ESPN big TV deal back that they had before.

And now it's as popular as it's ever been.

And franchises are worth more than they've ever been worth.

I guess like to phrase that better, if they don't come out of this with a salary cap and miss a season, they're in an awful spot.

Yeah.

You can't miss a season and then like nothing happens.

It's just, I'll say that.

Yeah.

My bad.

Good.

I said, you can't miss a whole season and then just go back to the exact same way.

Like if you miss a season, it's going to have to be a fundamentally different sport economically than it was before.

Yeah.

No, I was going to add, if that is what happens, that truly shows you the power of the MLB PPA.

And people say that it's the strongest union in the world, but yeah, you ain't touching them that like that.

If you don't get that out of this, there's never going to be a salary cap in MLB.

Ever.

Unless something terrible happens to like Jim's point where teams actually are filing for bankruptcy and such.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I don't know, man.

You'll learn banana ball boys.

Oh God.

Not for me.

Not for me.

I understand it's for some people.

It's not for me.

Well, even like thinking about that too, like go back to COVID.

Remember?

Cause there was no baseball.

It was a, Hey, remember the KBO started and everyone was like, pick your team.

And like for that, for that week, everyone was a big KBO fan.

And then it was like, this be like, hold on, I got to wake up at, I got to wake up at 4am to watch these games.

And that also just shows like nothing's replacing baseball.

Well, we'll probably there'll be something and there'll be the hype, right?

And it'll be internet famous and trending or whatever.

And then after a week it'll die.

And people are just like, eh, I don't care.

Like even minor league baseball, like there will be minor league baseball.

And like, yeah, I got to imagine there'll be a push and there's college baseball too, but like nothing will replace major league baseball.

It's going to be like, we will, we will be on this show talking about the Indianapolis Indians in May of 2027.

Like a lot of people aren't going to care.

That's right.

I'm talking to you.

You don't going to care, but you watching this better care.

Yeah.

You better just keep watching the whole time.

Yeah.

No, we have some fun stuff planned though.

For sure.

I was going to say, what's some fun things to keep people to continue coming back.

You know what launched today?

I'll make it easier for people to see here.

There we go.

North shore nine.

What are we calling it?

The North shore nine arcade.

And it's an arcade and it's nine play and it's nine play the official name.

So every day for one, if you have the app, make sure you have the app, but if you don't have the app, you can play on a browser as well on north shore nine.com slash play.

But we got daily trivia and it's like, I'm not going to lie.

DiNardo, you put this together.

You did an outstanding job.

Like I usually don't give you credit for much, but this is super fun.

Like I don't know what to do with my hands.

I don't know.

Like there's five things that you can do every day.

Now.

One is a daily trivia where like you get more points, the quicker you get the answer, the quicker you get the answer.

There's a, there's like a name that pirate where you get clues and the faster you, the less clues that you require to get it, the more points you get.

There's a, there's like a wordle type deal where, you get to play bucko word.

that was that today's was tough.

It was, it took me five, took me five tries today.

honestly, lineup.

And I'm not, the vocabulary is not the best, right?

Let me hit the head on the nail, hit the nail on the head, whatever.

But anyways, they've, I don't know, man, the bucko word is not for me.

That thing is tough.

The bucko word is tough.

Yeah.

It's, it, they've all been for me.

so I want to say that too, to interject because for you guys listening, as Jim continues this, like also give us feedback, like, I want to hear more from this too.

as you guys are playing, this is awesome stuff too, but yeah, like absolutely give us some feedback.

Like if bucko word is just impossible for people, then let's maybe switch it up and make it a little bit easier or something.

Cause, I don't know.

I don't know.

There's maybe only enough five letter words in baseball, especially pirates related.

The, my favorite, I don't know what, there's two that I really like.